Blu-ray dominates disc sales post-Warner decision

For the week ending January 13th, the first full week following Warner's decision to go Blu-ray exclusive, the Blu-ray camp had its most dominating disc sales week.

Since the beginning of 2007 Blu-ray has outsold HD DVD by an average of nearly 2:1 but the week in question saw the gap get even further. Blu-ray took a dominating 85 percent share of all HD discs sold.

HomeMediaMagazine also reported that from the top ten selling discs for the week, none were HD DVD. The top selling Blu-ray Title "3:10 to Yuma" sold about ten times as many discs as the top selling HD DVD title, "The Kingdom".

The latest news is another setback for HD DVD which had been holding its ground during the holiday season with a 40 percent share of disc sales.

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Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 17 Jan 2008 21:43

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82 comments

m3_chris

85/15 ouch! Way to go Blu-Ray!! But there is always another view from the Hd-dvd camp, and I can't wait to hear their logic on why this happened.

17.1.2008 21:51 #1

c1c

Just pick a format already!!!! This has gone on too long. how long did it take for betamax and vhs to finish? We want better quality movies.

17.1.2008 22:08 #2

rainofire

Ouch, that sure is a big hit HDDVD is recieving. But it's good new for blu-ray.

17.1.2008 22:13 #3

sk8flawzz

the week right after warners announcement, good news for blu of course

17.1.2008 22:15 #4

error5

I don't know how to explain the 85:15 and I can only guess. This was the week following the Warner announcement and there may have been the initial shock among HD DVD owners. So it could be the BluRay people buying the usual number of discs and the HD DVD people buying a lot less than usual.

Note the following:

>There were no BOGO's or special offers at amazon or the major retailers for either side. (The current sale at amazon started on the 13th IIRC so it's effect will show in next week's numbers.)

>There were several new releases - but none from Warner.

HD DVD
Zodiac: Director's Cut (Paramount)
Mobsters (Universal)
The Pianist (Universal)
White Noise (Universal)
White Noise: The Light (Universal)

BluRay
Night of the Werewolf / Vengeance of the Zombies (Deimos)
Con Air (Buena Vista)
The Rock (Buena Vista)
3:10 To Yuma (2007) (Lionsgate)
Man on Fire (Fox)
Sunshine (Fox)
Killing Machine / Shogun's Ninja (Double Feature) (BCI)
Sister Street Fighter / Sister Street Fighter 2 (Double Feature) (BCI)
Dragon Wars (Sony)

I was expecting 3:10 to Yuma to do well on the BluRay side - and it did. It was #1 overall.

I was also expecting Zodiac to sell very well on the HD DVD side - BUT IT DIDN'T. It was only #3 on the HD DVD side behind The Kingdom and Bourne.

Unless we see the raw numbers we can only guess that the usual HD DVD buyers bought a lot less than they usually do.

17.1.2008 22:17 #5

sk8flawzz

Originally posted by error5: Unless we see the raw numbers we can only guess that the usual HD DVD buyers bought a lot less than they usually do.Very true, I haven't made any purchases since then because I was waiting to see other studio's announcements. Zodiac and a few others are making their way into my living room this weekend though. I think that initial "shock" had a lot to do with it.

17.1.2008 22:24 #6

m3_chris

Quote:Originally posted by error5: Unless we see the raw numbers we can only guess that the usual HD DVD buyers bought a lot less than they usually do.I think that initial "shock" had a lot to do with it.I don't think the average consumer follows this as closely as we all do, to say that is the reason people held back buying this week.

17.1.2008 22:38 #7

sk8flawzz

Quote:Quote:Originally posted by error5: Unless we see the raw numbers we can only guess that the usual HD DVD buyers bought a lot less than they usually do.I think that initial "shock" had a lot to do with it.I don't think the average consumer follows this as closely as we all do, to say that is the reason people held back buying this week.I don't think the average consumer even buys HDM yet, standard DVD is still, 98% of all disc sales?

17.1.2008 22:43 #8

error5

I forgot about eBay.

A lot of people were offloading their players and discs on eBay for lower prices after the Warner announcement. Many HD DVD buyers may have been getting a good number of discs from these sales hence the low Nielsen numbers.

Any way you look at it, the Warner decision was the biggest development in the war so far.

17.1.2008 22:54 #9

iamgq

BLUE THUGH LIFE

18.1.2008 00:38 #10

Blackjax

Most likely being the 'old man' here I ask you to find the old man voice you know and read the following....

I remember a few years back when there was this new fangled thingy called dvd that came out. It wasn't long after 8 tracks, cassettes, laser disc, cd's and some other thingy where discs would stop playing after a few days if ya didn't buy a dern license for it. 'Rolls eyes' pay fer it then pay fer it again if ya wants ta keep it what a waste of yer money.... I wishes I could remember what they called it?
Wellllllll I bought that thingy called dvd cause they stopped makin me dad burn vhs tapes! Boy was I mad when they quit a makin my betamax tapes had to buy my whole collection agins, but thats another story..............
'snores briefly'...........
huh uh oh oh well the moral here is.......

Have a little patience or the only money that's wasted is your own!

18.1.2008 01:08 #11

red2tango

I wonder where Afterdawn's HD-DVD users are right now?cough cough lol

18.1.2008 06:37 #12

A_Klingon

Quote:I don't think the average consumer even buys HDM yet, standard DVD is still, 98% of all disc sales?Right now, standard DVD is Reigning KING. Period. Despite all the other hoopla.

I was watching the local news the other night, and they were interviewing this Video Shop owner who said that, although he carried a small collection of HD discs (both formats), NO ONE has purchased any in the last 6+ months, and that during this same time, exactly 2 (two) customers even enquired about them.

Percentage-wise, HD discs just aren't making any major inroads. People are just plain fed up with this ongoing bu----it format war.

I wouldn't want - just because I was impatient - to be the poor sucker to wind up with a bunch of expensive, dead discs & player on my shelf.

Early-adopt at your own risk.

18.1.2008 08:05 #13

A_Klingon

Originally posted by c1c: Just pick a format already!!!! This has gone on too long. ... how long did it take for betamax and vhs to finish?.....About 1/10th as long as both Hi-Def camps have spent trying to convince us how superior they are to the other format. :-)

18.1.2008 08:09 #14

simpsim1

Originally posted by red2tango: I wonder where Afterdawn's HD-DVD users are right now?cough cough lolStill here for the time being!

Blu-ray may triumph, but it's the media corporations that are going to benefit from it rather than us. Warner's decision was purely commercial and likely had a fairly sizeable dollar value attached to it. Add to that Blu-rays apparently superior hack-proofing and DRM capabilties and you see who actually wins in the end.... Certainly not the consumer.

18.1.2008 08:11 #15

A_Klingon

Originally posted by red2tango: I wonder where Afterdawn's HD-DVD users are right now?cough cough lolAt home watching their reg'lar (standard-def) DVDs, of course. :-)

18.1.2008 08:12 #16

hughjars

It's only to be expected.

Jan - Mar is alweays a quiet period for HD DVD
(exactly the same thing happened last year - but with fewer PS3s around back then the ratio slipped to 25:75 in BD's favour).

I only bought 1 disc myself this month.

The Blu-ray fanclub can ignore the central truth in all of this as much as they like but it won't go away.
You already decided you've won so stop trying to hide behind HD DVD numbers.

Compared to SD DVD the BD numbers are rubbish, very poor.

In fact compared to HD DVD (considering how many Blu-ray players are supposed to be out there - 10:1+ ) the numbers are rubbish and don't match that ratio.

No doubt the shock of Warner's post-dated declaration held HD DVD disc sales up - and as has been said undoubtedly the foolish minority who decided to bail out & dump their stuff will have led to a boon in 2nd hand sales.

As HD DVD players continue to sell very well (and they are) things will recover again later in the year (last year things picked up after march).
No big deal.

18.1.2008 08:40 #17

jagfar

i guess I don't understand why it's not in our best interest, as consumers, for both formats to survive...

Can somebody explain that???

Doesn't competition equal lower prices and better product???

18.1.2008 08:44 #18

juankerr

Originally posted by error5:
>There were no BOGO's or special offers at amazon or the major retailers for either side. (The current sale at amazon started on the 13th IIRC so it's effect will show in next week's numbers.)Next week's numbers may not be much different based on the top 100 DVD rankings on amazon (as of 9AM CST today - updated hourly).

BluRay has 14 titles in the top 100:

#13 Planet Earth
#15 Fifth Element
#20 Blade Runner
#23 Spider-Man trilogy
#28 Ratatouille
#32 3:10 to Yuma
#34 Pirates of Carribean: at world's end
#35 300
#38 Underworld
#40 Cars
#58 Close encounters of the third kind
#70 Casino Royale
#73 Superbad
#92 Sunshine

HD DVD has ONLY ONE:

#29 Planet Earth

If amazon rankings are accurate then you could say that people may be buying the HD DVD players but they sure aren't buying the discs. It's possible those buying the players are not new owners but previous early adaptors who are buying 2nd, or even 3rd or 4th machines for their current collection.

18.1.2008 09:12 #19

iamgq

18.1.2008 09:14 #20

A_Klingon

Originally posted by jagfar: i guess I don't understand why it's not in our best interest, as consumers, for both formats to survive...

Can somebody explain that???

Doesn't competition equal lower prices and better product???The main reason, I would think is that, in order to watch everything you'd like, you would need either TWO players, one for each format, or a Dual-Format machine. Either way, this is far more expensive for *you*.

Two competing formats will never survive in the long-term. (Beta/VHS)

Also, video retailers (and renters) don't want to have to expend the extra shelf-space (and expense) necessary to stock double-inventory of the same movie. So, you might have to visit a second (or third or fourth...) video store to rent the title you are looking for.

Beta/VHS coexisted for a time, but only one won out in the long-term.

And what if.... [oh my god; perish the thought], what if we had *three* competing formats?? :-( (I sure wouldn't want three different players at home EACH doing the exactly same thing) !

18.1.2008 09:57 #21

simpsim1

I disagree. You NEED competition to lower prices. If only one format survives, then the format producer, whoever that may be, will be able to charge whatever they want. We've all seen it before with games consoles.

As far as dual format players go, why is that such a bad idea? Obviously the formats were that much different with the videocassette format wars, but with the HD disc formats, the discs are exactly the same size and the lasers aren't all that different. I mean come on! How many DVD writers are multi-format? I think you'll find all of them are.

18.1.2008 09:59 #22

evz

Originally posted by hughjars: It's only to be expected.

Jan - Mar is alweays a quiet period for HD DVD
(exactly the same thing happened last year - but with fewer PS3s around back then the ratio slipped to 25:75 in BD's favour).

I only bought 1 disc myself this month.

The Blu-ray fanclub can ignore the central truth in all of this as much as they like but it won't go away.
You already decided you've won so stop trying to hide behind HD DVD numbers.

Compared to SD DVD the BD numbers are rubbish, very poor.

In fact compared to HD DVD (considering how many Blu-ray players are supposed to be out there - 10:1+ ) the numbers are rubbish and don't match that ratio.

No doubt the shock of Warner's post-dated declaration held HD DVD disc sales up - and as has been said undoubtedly the foolish minority who decided to bail out & dump their stuff will have led to a boon in 2nd hand sales.

As HD DVD players continue to sell very well (and they are) things will recover again later in the year (last year things picked up after march).
No big deal.What I don't understand is how you blindly ignore what you are saying. You are saying that blu has a 10:1 player lead. Yet you along with others hd dvd fans say that the ps3 can't be counted. However, when you tally it up without the ps3 hd dvd has a 2:1 lead in standalone (including 360 add-on) players. Yet they sell way less discs.

Explain please.

(proud owner of neither)

18.1.2008 10:14 #23

juankerr

Originally posted by simpsim1: I disagree. You NEED competition to lower prices. If only one format survives, then the format producer, whoever that may be, will be able to charge whatever they want.Explain then how DVD - a single dominant format - contues to show decreasing prices for both hardware and software. At Walmart and other retailers we see $50 upconverters, $15 new releases and $5 bargain bins even without significant competition.

18.1.2008 10:48 #24

pomelo

That's because no big name titles have been released for HD-DVD so far this year.

18.1.2008 11:17 #25

Xian

Quote:I disagree. You NEED competition to lower prices. If only one format survives, then the format producer, whoever that may be, will be able to charge whatever they want. We've all seen it before with games consoles. You will still have competition, except it will be between the manufacturers rather than over a standard. Having a single standard is much better for the consumer. A segmented market decreases sales rather than stimulates them. There will still be competition between manufacturers of the equipment and that will drive prices down.

18.1.2008 12:51 #26

stumpied

yeah, like gas.

All those companies selling the sam product helps keep the price low. . .wait a minute, is that really what happens?

18.1.2008 12:55 #27

tavek

ARGH!, Blue Ray has nice CD covers,
I knew that would be the better decifer,

18.1.2008 12:56 #28

chubbyInc

The Kingdom (HD-DVD) VS 3:10 to Yuma (Blu-Ray)

why even bother comparing the two.

When there are dual format release compared he see the actual difference in numbers sold.

I'll stick to my Harmon/Kardon DVD48

SD DVD's are cheaper and look great in my player.

18.1.2008 13:08 #29

goodswipe

Originally posted by stumpied: yeah, like gas.

All those companies selling the sam product helps keep the price low. . .wait a minute, is that really what happens?That my friend is due to the Sauidi's, not the American gas companies.

Well this was to be expected, with Warner's decision to go Blu and the fact that HD-DVD doesn't really have to many BIG titles out right now, this was bound to happen. I sure was hoping to see LOTR's out on HD-DVD but, I doubt we will see it on Blu-ray anytime soon.

18.1.2008 13:24 #30

A_Klingon

Originally posted by simpsim1: I disagree. You NEED competition to lower prices. If only one format survives, then the format producer, whoever that may be, will be able to charge whatever they want. We've all seen it before with games consoles.

As far as dual format players go, why is that such a bad idea? Obviously the formats were that much different with the videocassette format wars, but with the HD disc formats, the discs are exactly the same size and the lasers aren't all that different. I mean come on! How many DVD writers are multi-format? I think you'll find all of them are.You're joking, right? This is a "joke post", right? (Hello? Am I on 'Candid Camera'? C'mon guys, where's the camera?") :-)

Yes you need competition to lower prices. That will come from the different studios vying for your purchase dollars, and from the different retailers vying for your business. It will not come from 100% incompatable formats which are, fundamentally so different from each other it's not even funny.

Dual-format players are "OK" if you don't mind paying the hefty markup price, AND, you realize that one or other of the formats it supports will one day be a Dead Duck.

Quote:the lasers aren't all that different.No so. They are based on entirely different wavelengths requiring, if I'm not mistaken, entirely different laser assemblies. You wanna pay for all the extra associated mechanics that go along with that? One laser cannot read the discs of the other. As I say, I could be wrong about that, but I've never heard tell of it.

At least with DVD+R and DVD-R media, the same laser is compatible with both (as well as CD).

18.1.2008 13:52 #31

stumpied

Quote:Originally posted by stumpied: yeah, like gas.

All those companies selling the sam product helps keep the price low. . .wait a minute, is that really what happens?That my friend is due to the Sauidi's, not the American gas companies.

Well this was to be expected, with Warner's decision to go Blu and the fact that HD-DVD doesn't really have to many BIG titles out right now, this was bound to happen. I sure was hoping to see LOTR's out on HD-DVD but, I doubt we will see it on Blu-ray anytime soon.Not exactly. . .Canada is the largest supplier of oil to the US. If that's the case, why is oil/gas more expensive in Canada then in the US?

Your telling me it's not these corporations keeping these prices higher then need be?

http://www.oilheatamerica.com/index.mv?screen=supply

Crude Oil Imports Top 10 Countries, March 2006

The same thing will happen with these products. Why, becuase they can do it and get away with it.

18.1.2008 14:03 #32

goodswipe

@ stumpied

If you wish to further continue that argument, I'd be more than happy to talk to you via pm. Let's try and keep this thread on topic.

:0)

18.1.2008 14:17 #33

stumpied

Originally posted by goodswipe: @ stumpied

If you wish to further continue that argument, I'd be more than happy to talk to you via pm. Let's try and keep this thread on topic.

:0)I did bud, that was an example.

Like I said about the competition. These companies (Blu-Ray manufactures)will keep their prices higher longer cause they will have less competition. They have an understanding that if they all keep prices relativly the same, people will still be buying their product and making more of a profit.

With the HD DVD prices, regarless of the reasons behind it, I can't imagine they were turning huge profits.

18.1.2008 14:25 #34

DVDBack23

18.1.2008 14:46 #35

SProdigy

Quote:Like I said about the competition. These companies (Blu-Ray manufactures)will keep their prices higher longer cause they will have less competition. They have an understanding that if they all keep prices relativly the same, people will still be buying their product and making more of a profit.

With the HD DVD prices, regarless of the reasons behind it, I can't imagine they were turning huge profits.Yeah, well they figure that "HD" mediums are a "premium" and will try to squeeze 3x the amount of money out of the consumer for it rather than your standard DVD. Why bother?

18.1.2008 15:53 #36

jagstilv

Quote:Originally posted by red2tango: I wonder where Afterdawn's HD-DVD users are right now?cough cough lolStill here for the time being!

Blu-ray may triumph, but it's the media corporations that are going to benefit from it rather than us. Warner's decision was purely commercial and likely had a fairly sizeable dollar value attached to it. Add to that Blu-rays apparently superior hack-proofing and DRM capabilties and you see who actually wins in the end.... Certainly not the consumer.Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why a company choosing a format that offers protection for their IP is a bad thing? I understand the problem with DRM and music - mostly being a compatability issue. Yet with the HD formats the argument doesn't fit. So are you complaining that suddenly its harder for you to pirate movies? Have you stopped to think that maybe you're a good part of the reason why Warner decided to go Blu-ray?
And to everyone that insists that PS3 owners don't count in the format war - think again. A lot of us gamers aren't the pimply faced teens that you're thinking of. A lot of us have grown up, graduated college and have careers - add to that disposable income for things like BD movies. I know of 4 friends beside myself who own PS3's and own move than 5 (purchased not free) BD movies. Why don't we count in the format war again?

18.1.2008 17:23 #37

DieMPAA

Actually the competition always was just plain old vanilla DVD. And if you'll look at the DVD format's evolution, prices started high but they developed price points and repackaging (Director's Cut, Unrated, Anniversary, etc.) to get the consumer to buy the same movie over and over again. (Raise your hand if you're guilty. Yes, that's my hand too.) The problem now is that the library for both of the high definition formats is nothing in comparison to the headstart of regular DVD, but on the plus side, that means alot of things to look forward to.

I think we can stop obsessing about units of sales (I'm a Blu-ray consumer), there is more to come and more diversity in pricing, and focus instead on the companies to deliver a reliable, updateable player at a price point that the average consumer feels is reasonable ($100-$150).

HD-DVD will be around as long as Toshiba and friends continue to support it. If it dies, don't blame Blu-ray and Sony for winning the format war, blame Toshiba and Microsoft for losing it.

18.1.2008 17:23 #38

hughjars

Originally posted by evz: Yet you along with others hd dvd fans say that the ps3 can't be counted. - Where did I say that?

I'm all for counting the PS3s as Blu-ray players - it demonstrates their weakness & the pathetic attachment rates they're depending upon.

Maybe you should stick to what I have actually said instead of paraphrasing what you would like me to have said.

Originally posted by evz: However, when you tally it up without the ps3 hd dvd has a 2:1 lead in standalone (including 360 add-on) players. - It's perfectly fair and legitimate for the PS3 not to officially count as a Blu-ray stand-alone device.

It is a game console.

The day Toshiba make a game console with an HD DVD drive built in it is also the day that that player doesn't count as a stand-alone device either.

Unfortunately this concept seems a tad too difficult for some to grasp.

It's simple.
Not all players count as stand-alones because they can be 'primarily' something else.
Just like Toshiba/Asus/Acer/HP/Samsung & Intel HD DVD notepad/laptops don't count as stand-alone devices either.

I don't think this is an especially difficult concept to grasp
(and of course it isn't, the fanclub understands this perfectly well.
It's just that the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub can't bear to see any 'stat' where they are not in the lead)

Originally posted by evz: Yet they sell way less discs.

Explain please. - Explain what?

Getting a fast kick-start from building the Blu-ray drive into a huge brand-name game console obviously was going to give that format a huge leg-up in movie disc sales.
This is what has happened and it was completely expected.

Sadly for Blu-ray those sales are less than stellar (they have not been gaining ground on SD DVD movie sales for instance).

The problem Blu-ray have is being stuck in the PS3 game console niche; more PS3 sales help them some, but not very directly as so few PS3s do get used as movie players.

It ought to be nailed at the top of every one of these stories & debates that so far in the almost 2 years these formats have been out
Blu-ray (according to the BDA's own most recent numbers) has sold 6 million movie discs to
HD DVD's slightly under 3 million movie discs.

In a market where total DVD movie disc sales were 750 million + last year alone.

Some reason & perspective would be sensible.

These are all 'drop in the ocean' numbers, even if Blu-ray's drop in the ocean is slightly larger than HD DVD's - for now.

Blu-ray also have a horrific stand-alone record - and one set to get worse as people understand the full implications of the whole 'profile' debacle.

Those cut-price Sony S300 & Samsung BDP 1400 owners who bought their $260 'bargains' will be mightily pi$$ed off if the BDA's recent admission that 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' players might not be able to play 'profile 2.0' discs properly turns out to be true.

(and no, this issue isn't just about 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' players being able to access any 'extras' on the new 'profile 2.0' discs.
It's actually about whether or not the 'profile 2.0' discs will play properly & be watchable at all on their earlier 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' machines.

.......and as far as the BDA is concerned 'tough luck', "they knew what they were getting into", apparently.)

18.1.2008 18:51 #39

simpsim1

@A_Klingon.

Sure the dual format players are more expensive and yes there are substantial differences in the discs and the technologies, and yes I'll even admit that eventually, one format will probably prevail and it may well work in everyones favour, but the fact that the players exist is proof at least that there may be a market for them.

Let's for one minute imagine that Blu-Ray triumphs tomorrow. HD-DVD pull the plug and is no more. How quickly do you think it would be before the price of the technology comes down.

Another question to throw in to the argument. If one format alone is the way to go, then shouldn't there be only one games console format? That would make things easier if the shops only had to stock one type of game.

The thing that we all probably lose sight of is that this technology, as advanced as it is, is still in a fairly fledgling state, as opposed to the SD DVD standard as we know it. Surely at this early stage and with HD sales accounting for such a small minority of the market, a good healthy bit of competition could only help encourage the manufacturers to keep their games raised and deliver better standards and at better prices than would have been achieved in a monopoly situation.

I think the film "Demolition Man" satirized this sort of situation perfectly. In one scene, Sandra Bullock explains to Sylvester Stallone that in a franchise war between rival restaurant buisnesses, "the only survivor was Taco Bell. Now ALL restaurants are Taco Bell". Imagine that LOL.

@jagstilv.

The matter of DRM is not about piracy, but about the rights of the consumer to use the product. I could go into a whole new argument about consumer choice, but I would be straying dangerously off-topic. I disagree with the prospect that future uses of the DRM technology could include for example, things like a limited amount of plays per disc. If Blu-Ray or even HD-DVD ended up as the prevalent form of Media for viewing movies, what would there be to stop them doing it?

@Xian.

I still disagree and mention again the argument about games consoles. They seem to be managing OK with more than one format.

18.1.2008 20:28 #40

jagstilv

Originally posted by simpsim1: @A_Klingon.

Sure the dual format players are more expensive and yes there are substantial differences in the discs and the technologies, and yes I'll even admit that eventually, one format will probably prevail and it may well work in everyones favour, but the fact that the players exist is proof at least that there may be a market for them.

Let's for one minute imagine that Blu-Ray triumphs tomorrow. HD-DVD pull the plug and is no more. How quickly do you think it would be before the price of the technology comes down.

Another question to throw in to the argument. If one format alone is the way to go, then shouldn't there be only one games console format? That would make things easier if the shops only had to stock one type of game.

The thing that we all probably lose sight of is that this technology, as advanced as it is, is still in a fairly fledgling state, as opposed to the SD DVD standard as we know it. Surely at this early stage and with HD sales accounting for such a small minority of the market, a good healthy bit of competition could only help encourage the manufacturers to keep their games raised and deliver better standards and at better prices than would have been achieved in a monopoly situation.

I think the film "Demolition Man" satirized this sort of situation perfectly. In one scene, Sandra Bullock explains to Sylvester Stallone that in a franchise war between rival restaurant buisnesses, "the only survivor was Taco Bell. Now ALL restaurants are Taco Bell". Imagine that LOL.

@jagstilv.

The matter of DRM is not about piracy, but about the rights of the consumer to use the product. I could go into a whole new argument about consumer choice, but I would be straying dangerously off-topic. I disagree with the prospect that future uses of the DRM technology could include for example, things like a limited amount of plays per disc. If Blu-Ray or even HD-DVD ended up as the prevalent form of Media for viewing movies, what would there be to stop them doing it?

@Xian.

I still disagree and mention again the argument about games consoles. They seem to be managing OK with more than one format.Let's think about this for a second... BD and HD-DVD both have some sort of DRM or anti-copying technology, correct? Currently DVD's come with at a minimum CSS and a variety of other copy protection options are available. So in essence nothing has changed from DVD to next-gen formats except the type of protection. Where is the problem? I'd like to see where anyone has any evidence of a limited play Blu-ray disc? After the DivX debacle I can't really see any company making the same mistake. Though I openly admit I could be wrong, but I�d like to see something more than speculation. If anything offers the consumer less than their monies worth its downloadable movies like what was recently announced from Apple.

18.1.2008 22:13 #41

DC5R

Well my PS3 is my stand-alone player as well as a game console. How is it not considered a stand-alone in all reality? I'm also tired of these so-called attachment rate numbers that are always spewed out, utter rubbish. I myself own 93 BD discs in a matter of just 3 months. Could I have bought another BD player instead of the PS3, sure but that would be ignorant really since I enjoy playing my previous driving games from my PS2 on it as well as newer driving games for the PS3 on the same machine, so buying a so-called "true" stand alone player would limit what I could do with it.

Jan-Mar last year was also a slow period for HD-DVD sales so it was to be expected this year as well??? Are you serious? That to me sounds just absurd. If both sides were selling bad in that time frame I would/could agree, but for 1 format to still sell in large quantities over the other, it just sounds as though some are holding onto a thread. I'm not saying HD-DVD is dead as long as it has some studio backing it will continue to exist, nor will I say that those backing it should just switch sides already. I could care less what somebody chooses, I've made my choice and am quite happy with it, even with "unfinished" profiles, because guess what...I LIKE TO WATCH MOVIES, not directors and behind the scenes footage played while I am watching the movie interrupting what is the main focus of the disc to begin with. So I am very happy with what I have now at my disposal, HD movies in 1080P. Have never been a fan of all the extras and have always wished that the movie studios sold 2 formats...movie ony and then one with the extras, the movie only one of course selling for a bit less money.

18.1.2008 22:40 #42

_H06_

im tired of all you HD-DVD Fanboys coming in here and saying some shit about how the ps3 is a piece of crap and is way to expensive. Listen the HD-DVD add on for the 360 costs $200. So if you get the Premium Consle you pay around 536.00. Now if you buy the Elite it costs around 600.00. We pay 500.00 for the best consle AND get a Free Game. Plus you microsoft slaves have to pay to play Online.

18.1.2008 23:12 #43

A_Klingon

@simpsim1 :

Quote:but the fact that the [dual format] players exist is proof at least that there may be a market for them. First of all, I want you to know that from a strictly High Definition Video viewpoint, I am completely format-neutral. Both formats have proven their ability to produce stunning realism - a quantum leap in clarity that we have never known before.

Yes, there IS a market for dual-format players (I never said there wasn't), but I suspect that that has a LOT more to do with folks having lots of money to spend and/or folks just getting FED UP with all the bulls--- and politics that the formats are currently quagmired in, more than any inherent "superiority" these dual format players have. They're not "better", they're just more expensive - something that wouldn't be necessary if we had just ONE unified format.

I don't want to overly-orate here - I have fixed feelings on the subject which you can read here (6 posts down):

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/615742

Quote:Let's for one minute imagine that Blu-Ray triumphs tomorrow. HD-DVD pull the plug and is no more. How quickly do you think it would be before the price of the technology comes down. Not substancially faster or slower than it's going to evolve anyway. I don't buy into the theory that a prevailant single dominant format will decrease the rate at which prices will come down just because that format is 'the only game in town'. Although the various studios have a common vested interest, they are, after all, still competitors to each other. If you only have enough money to buy one Hi-Def movie this payday, Warner Brothers doesn't want you buying it from 20th Century Fox -- and vice versa. I assure you, you will see more competition, with-or-without dual formats, that you can shake a stick at.

Similarly, the competition between different hardware manufacturers is equally fierce. Price-cutting will become commonplace no matter WHO wins the war. Just give it time. Competition between the different retail giants alone will be rampant, and I'm even talking about the same brand-name & model of player. Add to that eBay. We'll all have competition oozing out of our HDMI cables! :-)

Quote:Surely at this early stage and with HD sales accounting for such a small minority of the market, a good healthy bit of competition could only help encourage the manufacturers to keep their games raised and deliver better standards and at better prices than would have been achieved in a monopoly situation. Well, right now the only thing I can really see happening of any lasting consequence of having two incompatible formats, is that it is hurting both the manufacturers/content-providers, AND consumers alike. No one is winning here. It is causing mass-confusion, headaches, unnecessary complexity - and is only serving to SLOW DOWN the wholesale adoption of Hi-Def in general.

The industry is helplessly greedy, simpsim1. Competition will fix that little snafu I can assure you, but right now it is a lose-lose situation for both they, and us. Politics is reigning here, not technology - we already have the technology.

I won't be buying into Hi-Def until VHS firmly pins Betamax down to the mat for the Count Of Ten!!! (Whichever 'VHS' turns out to be.)

19.1.2008 00:37 #44

hade

Originally posted by hughjars: It ought to be nailed at the top of every one of these stories & debates that so far in the almost 2 years these formats have been out
Blu-ray (according to the BDA's own most recent numbers) has sold 6 million movie discs to
HD DVD's slightly under 3 million movie discs.

In a market where total DVD movie disc sales were 750 million + last year alone.

Some reason & perspective would be sensible.

These are all 'drop in the ocean' numbers, even if Blu-ray's drop in the ocean is slightly larger than HD DVD's - for now.why do you constantly compare overall Disc sales numbers of blu-ray which has an install base not too long ago topping over 3 million to DVD which has in the US a LENGTHY install base of roughly 85+ MILLION? people have owned DVD players for YEARS as opposed to Blu-ray so its not like 85 MILLION owners bought their players just within this year like Blu-ray. wtf kind of gap or lopsided conclusion would anyone expect with those numbers? im curious what kind of POSITIVE argument you could make given the same scenario for DVD and HD-DVD sales numbers. absolutely NOTHING, but hey you could always argue attachment rates because that has certainly been a crucial component in this battle, right? nope.

as you said Some reason & perspective would be sensible., so why don't you take your own advice and do what i did for Pirates 3 when it released and find some kind of estimate to the PERCENTAGE of owners that are buying movies. you can't simply compare total sales numbers to sales numbers when the install bases are not one in the same. when i plugged the numbers in for pirates3 in its initial week, DVD stood at roughly 9% while Blu-ray stood at roughly 6%. not as HUGE as a GAP as you are making it out. Blu-ray really didn't get kicked off till the release of the ps3 so your comment about the formats being around for 2 years is a bit tainted, well atleast on the Blu side.

one could argue the MASSIVE LIBRARY OF MOVIES ON DVD compared to the LIBRARY for Blu-ray as a possible deciding factor for the sales gap or percentage gap. also there is the argument that the MAJORITY of movies first released on Blu-ray were old movies that most already owned on DVD or they were movies people never bought on DVD (so naturally they wouldn't buy them then). price as well but hey what do i know? i "ramble" too much

your arguments are, have, and apparently will always be weak. before you argued "attachment rates" and naturally you continue to make such ridiculous comments. OBVIOUSLY your "attachment rate" argument is null as all Blu-ray exclusive studios have remained loyal DISNEY, LIONSGATE to name a few ;) (im sure those studios ring a bell in your mind), Warner ultimately went Blu bringing along other studios, so you know what, keep arguing it. that only makes sense.

you gloated about some CES news that would ruffle the battle in favor of HD-DVD, but naturally you were wrong about that. there seems to be a fitting tune for your logic and that needs no other explanation. hey don't forget those "cheap" chinese players coming to town. when? YES im still waiting for your reply to this...HOWEVER i don't expect anything as you tend to ignore my comments or simply can't make any formidable argument

19.1.2008 01:50 #45

OFI

Lol at the people refusing to count the PS3 as BluRay player. Last time I checked it plays BluRay disks and is one of the best value for money players available. Not to mention it is one of the only players with the ability to take online firmware updates.
Granted it plays games but Sony actually marketed it as an Entertainment Console rather than a Games Console, something that can do everything.
It's like saying most modern phones don't count in the 'phone war' as they have some pretty good cameras on them.
Manipulating statistics and sales figures like that to make your arguement just makes you look silly.

I don't own either player, but it's not hard to see that HD-DVD has got its work cut out if it wants to make it into 2009. Personally I think the disks are currently too overpriced to compete with DVDs although once one format gets a significant lead in the market i'd expect the prices to drop inline with DVDs. They better...

19.1.2008 04:30 #46

Amir89

Oh for god's sake how long do they need to drag out the death of HD-DVD for...?

It's like shooting man in the foot, hacking one of his arms off, pummeling him with a baseball bat and then continuing to kick his head about as he crawls along the floor..

Just die already, let HD-DVD go out with some dignity and give the consumers a break.

Current Specs:
Intel82801BA Mobo, Intel D 945G @3.4Ghz, 2x2Mb L2 Cache, 1Gb DDR2 SD RAM @677Mhz, 250Gb WD Caviar @10,000Rpm, GeForce7600GT 512MB GDDR2, ASUSTek Tiger Digital/Analog TV Tuner, Samsung SyncMaster941BW 19" LCD, LG H20L DVD�R/RW DL LightScribe, LG GSA-4167B DVD�R/RW DL, Logitech Z-5500 505Watt 5.1 Surround

19.1.2008 08:25 #47

hughjars

LMAO

Tough luck Blu-ray fanboys, HD DVD isn't going away anywhere.

The 2nd & 3rd largest Hollywood srtudios are staying with HD DVD despite all your day-dreams that any second now they're about to walk
(whatever happened to all those desperately repeated hoary old tales of escape clauses & being out of contract, huh?)

It's quite laughable really, HD DVD holds around 38 - 40% of the market and yet the PS3/Blu-ray chorus all want it to be dead and go away.

Which is quite interesting seeing as neither Blu-ray nor PS3 have even reached anything like close to the 38 - 40% market share level (compared to their supposed main competitors in the overall movie disc market and the game console market).

They're obviously not too good at this 'being consistent' business, eh?

(Hade, your rambling tirades are amusing to a point but so full of holes & the usual fanboy exaggeration & blindness it's not funny anymore.)

19.1.2008 10:46 #48

juankerr

Finally found the graphics and tables that go with the article:

Yeah it's funny.

But only in the way that stealing someone else's once very funny but now totally well-worn (out) gag is.

Talk about a rather dreary lack of immagination.

21.1.2008 08:17 #69

Nephilim

Back on topic folks.

21.1.2008 18:07 #70

eatsushi

Some interesting hardware numbers from the NPD Group. The Warner effect was also felt on the hardware side:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/22/blu...arner-went-blu/

Quote:According to the latest NPD group report, during the month of December Blu-ray players held 60 percent of the HD media player market -- despite the fact that HD DVD players were considerably cheaper. While that might've helped Warner in its decision to go Blu, the move has definitely had a dramatic effect on player sales since. According to the same study the week after the announcement, Blu-ray players were able to grab 93 percent of the market, which puts the year to date (short, we know) share for Blu-ray players at 70 percent. Granted, it's hard to put too much stock in just a week or two of data, but if this and the recent media sales numbers (85 percent) becomes a trend, maybe this won't be such a slow death for HD DVD after all.

Important note: The numbers DO NOT include the PS3 and the 360 addon. These are just standalone numbers.

Who's the NPD Group you ask? From the wiki:

Quote:The NPD Group, Inc. is a leading global market research company founded in 1967 and provides consumer and retail information to manufacturers and retailers. Using actual sales data from retailers and distributors as well as consumer-reported purchasing behavior, NPD offers consumer panel and retail sales tracking services, special reports, modeling and analytics, and custom research.

22.1.2008 13:59 #71

_H06_

thanks man, so now all those HD-DVD fanboys can stop complaing that the numbers were only good because of the PS3.

22.1.2008 19:38 #72

_H06_

Quote:Yeah it's funny.

But only in the way that stealing someone else's once very funny but now totally well-worn (out) gag is.

Talk about a rather dreary lack of immagination.

seems like a certain HD-DVD fan boy is mad....

22.1.2008 19:40 #73

Nephilim

You just got as two week vacation for that off topic remark genius.

My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

22.1.2008 20:24 #74

hughjars

@ eatsushi

A weekly pie chart, come on, that's so loaded, selective & lame.

You left out the part that says HD DVD has 64% of standalone market.

http://www.cepro.com/article/gaming_push...research_finds/

22.1.2008 21:01 #75

error5

Originally posted by hughjars: You left out the part that says HD DVD has 64% of standalone market. Not according to Toshiba.

On October 9th, 2007, Toshiba claimed 53% of the standalone market.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6...ndustryid=47213

Quote:Year to date, according to NPD figures she cited, HD DVD players command 53% of sales; Blu-ray players, 44%; dual format players, 3%.
By the time Toshiba had their CES 2008 press conference their number had shrunk to 49.3%.

This pie chart is from their CES 2008 press conference:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/06/live-...ess-conference/

Take note of Toshiba's very own pie chart:
Standalone Market Share for the entire 2007
Toshiba/HD DVD - 49.3%
BluRay or Dual Format from other brands - 50.7%

This means that BluRay standalone sales were significantly bigger over the crucial 4th quarter of 2007. This continued into the 1st 2 weeks of 2008.

According to the NPD Group BluRay got 60% of standalone sales for the month of December 2007.

Remember that the PS3 is not included in these numbers as eatsushi pointed out earlier.

22.1.2008 21:21 #76

hade

interesting posts by both, i swear eatsushi and error5 should be renamed lamb nTunaFish as you guys often complement one another pretty well. haha im kidding.

if blu-ray SA sales continue like this given the underpriced HD-DVD players then its only a matter of time before retailers pull the underselling product. OR a more realistic scenario, they (retailers) simply don't RESTOCK their inventory. thus when we see this occur there will be a cutback in production from tosh. and an ultimate departure from the HD market. well actually not, im sure tosh. will make a very nice Blu-ray player ;)

22.1.2008 22:06 #77

error5

Another thing - I think hughjars mis-read his article.

The article didn't say that HD DVD had 64% of the standalone market.

It says:

Quote:Toshiba has 64% more units than all Blu-ray players combined.64% more units is not the same as 64% of market share.

PLUS the 64% figure covers only Q1 to Q3 of 2007. It disregards the crucial 4th quarter which, as demonstrated above and proven by Toshiba's own pie chart, was dominated by BluRay standalone sales.

Quote:Toshiba accounted for nearly 64 percent more than all available Blu-ray brands combined between Q1 and Q3 �07.
-----------
Quote: i swear eatsushi and error5 should be renamed lamb nTunaFish That reminds me - my dinner's getting cold.

22.1.2008 22:35 #78

hughjars

Same old BS.

Try and talk-up 'momentum', it 's nothing more.

If things really were as they say (typically) they'd be showing stats/graphs for several months (at least a quarter).

They didn't cos it's just the usual marketing manipulation.

23.1.2008 07:57 #79

juankerr

Originally posted by hughjars: If things really were as they say (typically) they'd be showing stats/graphs for several months (at least a quarter).Well error5's post above shows Toshiba's own pie chart for the whole year of 2007. HD DVD standalones had 49.3% marketshare from Toshiba's own data.

I'll look for the NPD data for Q4 of 2007 but will you settle for the month of December of 2007? It's in error5's post above too:

So for the busiest shopping month of the year, BluRay standalones outsold HD DVD by 60% to 40% (weeks ending 12/8 to 12/29 per NPD). Remember the PS3 numbers were not included in this.

23.1.2008 11:05 #80

hughjars

I'll wait until there's a quiet revision of the data thanks juankerr.

They've 'proved' as much as they've 'won'; absolutely nothing.

23.1.2008 13:35 #81

borhan9

Well apparently the war is officially over although i have not read the new article i am guessing if these are the numbers in January then blu-ray would have won the war.

16.2.2008 18:01 #82

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