Nintendo wants the US to solve international video game piracy problems

Nintendo wants the US to solve international video game piracy problems
It seems that Nintendo of America has asked the U.S. Trade Representative to "encourage" international governments to take a harsher stance against piracy of Nintendo video games and systems around the world.

Filing a "Special 301" process with the Trade Representative means the group will "solicit input from the public to underscore specific areas of concern."



Although China remains a primary source for the manufacturing of pirated Nintendo console games, the report says Korea is emerging as the leader for distributing the games over the Internet. The report also said that "despite aggressive anti-piracy actions taken by the company", Brazil, Mexico, Paraguay and Hong Kong remain saturated with pirated goods or serve as major "transshipment points for global distribution of illegal goods."

"The unprecedented momentum enjoyed by Nintendo DS and Wii makes Nintendo an attractive target for counterfeiters," said Jodi Daugherty, Nintendo of America's senior director of anti-piracy. "We estimate that in 2007, Nintendo, together with its publishers and developers, suffered nearly $975 million USD worldwide in lost sales as a result of piracy. Nintendo will continue to work with governments around the world to aggressively curtail this illegal activity."

Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 14 Feb 2008 16:42
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  • 38 comments

  • amf0802

    when these people estimate how much they lost due to piracy, their is an assumption in their thinking that isn't necessarily true.

    They assume that all the people that own pirated games would have bought the legit game if the pirated versions were unavailable. But this isn't true, someone may only buy a game because the pirated version is a fraction of the cost.

    I've watched plenty of games and tried lots of software only because they were easily available on the net. I never would have actually payed for them.

    14.2.2008 17:11 #1

  • Sazaziel

    Wow! As many Wii's and DS's that were sold out ever since their release. I cant believe it. Nintendo has actually resorted to lying just to make more money. What a shame.

    14.2.2008 17:29 #2

  • mperagine

    Originally posted by amf0802: when these people estimate how much they lost due to piracy, their is an assumption in their thinking that isn't necessarily true.

    They assume that all the people that own pirated games would have bought the legit game if the pirated versions were unavailable. But this isn't true, someone may only buy a game because the pirated version is a fraction of the cost.

    I've watched plenty of games and tried lots of software only because they were easily available on the net. I never would have actually payed for them.    I second this. I have such a huge library of games and software games on all systems, but only because they were easily available. I would not have spent my life savings on this stuff. For systems like the PS3, where all games must be bought, I rent and try and only buy what appeals to me. When I was buying DS and Wii games, I had a few here and there fr each. I would not have bought all of my backups if I didn't have a wiikey and an R4, maybe about an eighth of them.

    14.2.2008 18:04 #3

  • FamousGuy

    Maybe if they released completed games on the dates that they promised, people wouldn't have to pirate Smash Brothers.

    14.2.2008 18:19 #4

  • UkWizard

    Nintendo should have taken more steps to avoid this piracy. I think it was within a week of the wii release that it was cracked wide open. Why the hell would I pay for a pirate copy when I could do it myself for free. The ps3 is only safe just now because the blu-ray discs are such a rip-off, there probably is pirates working on the ps3 right now. I've heard that the makers of any dvd have apparently cracked blu-ray so it's only a matter of time when I will be downloading ps3 games.

    14.2.2008 18:20 #5

  • don010

    lol tell me im wrong but nintendo caused this on themselves in a way

    the life line of the wii was to be released in december 2007 (super smash bros. brawl)

    but nintendo delayed it
    to make matters worse they released it officialy in japan first in january 2008 like idiots but the wierd part was that some people had the game from last year November in japan

    even though nintendo is A JAPANESE company they indirectly encouraged people to pirate as a means to meet to the demands if thet couldn't get it in europe or the US its sad

    they should have followed sony from th ps1 when sony had regional release dates like for example metal gear solid was released in japan first and 2 days later illegal japanese copies where made and scrambled in the US, this later led to mod chips and converters on game consoles so the could play burned japanese games or illegaly pirated games lol
    if you think im lying imagine metal gear solid online coming out next week in the US but you found out it was coming out tomorrow in Japan and that you can download a free full pirated version that could play now. which one would you pick?


    well i guess its nintendo's turn to be taught a lesson

    14.2.2008 18:54 #6

  • varnull

    Serves them right.. I don't think the console would be anything like the seller it is without the download capabilities for the games. They can't have it both ways, as the ps3 is finding.. High cost games and no possibility of other region games means poor sales.. Back even with the cartridge consoles there was a market for adapters and imported games.. tendo have even encouraged this in Japan.. Do they think we are stupid? Do they think we don't know what they do in Japan with the DS, or are they just trying to get the US even more hated across the world (if that is actually possible.. I would happily drop a few nukes on certain organisations in the USA right now)

    F--- em.. download everything until they drop the prices to something fair.



    Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

    14.2.2008 19:05 #7

  • mperagine

    Originally posted by varnull: Serves them right.. I don't think the console would be anything like the seller it is without the download capabilities for the games. They can't have it both ways, as the ps3 is finding.. High cost games and no possibility of other region games means poor sales.. Back even with the cartridge consoles there was a market for adapters and imported games.. tendo have even encouraged this in Japan.. Do they think we are stupid? Do they think we don't know what they do in Japan with the DS, or are they just trying to get the US even more hated across the world (if that is actually possible.. I would happily drop a few nukes on certain organisations in the USA right now)

    F--- em.. download everything until they drop the prices to something fair.    Amen.

    14.2.2008 20:40 #8

  • engage16

    i like how they complain about hacked game console and how sales go down cause of them... someone had to buy the original console to begin with... are they forgetting about that?

    14.2.2008 20:57 #9

  • Deadrum33

    Nintendo should worry about making a game that doesnt have Mario in it. People might actually pay some money for a game based on an original idea (that doesnt have Mario in it).

    14.2.2008 22:04 #10

  • shummyr

    Quote:Originally posted by varnull: Serves them right.. I don't think the console would be anything like the seller it is without the download capabilities for the games. They can't have it both ways, as the ps3 is finding.. High cost games and no possibility of other region games means poor sales.. Back even with the cartridge consoles there was a market for adapters and imported games.. tendo have even encouraged this in Japan.. Do they think we are stupid? Do they think we don't know what they do in Japan with the DS, or are they just trying to get the US even more hated across the world (if that is actually possible.. I would happily drop a few nukes on certain organisations in the USA right now)

    F--- em.. download everything until they drop the prices to something fair.    Amen.
    YOU GOT That right

    This is a stupid Joke nintendo is pulling

    Attention Starved Corporate America

    Shummyr

    14.2.2008 22:10 #11

  • area_51

    PHUCK EM!

    14.2.2008 23:15 #12

  • kyo28

    I'm actually with Nintendo on this one. Pirated games hurt the industry and lets money flow to shady organizations instead of the people who actually put their effort and work into the games.

    If everyone would just buy pirated games, then we would effectively be killing the gaming industry. The companies don't make their profits with console sales (in fact, most companies lose money on that) but on game sales. I love my games and wouldn't want them to disappear because of some idiots who are making illegal copies in their garage. People who really love their games buy them legit.

    15.2.2008 04:01 #13

  • varnull

    Quote:I'm actually with Nintendo on this one. Pirated games hurt the industry and lets money flow to shady organizations instead of the people who actually put their effort and work into the games.

    If everyone would just buy pirated games, then we would effectively be killing the gaming industry. The companies don't make their profits with console sales (in fact, most companies lose money on that) but on game sales. I love my games and wouldn't want them to disappear because of some idiots who are making illegal copies in their garage. People who really love their games buy them legit.    And along comes somebody who believes that dwnloading something completely for free somehow supports terrorism.. OOO.. I bet Brown and Bush and the mpaa/riaa just love people like you.. Me and Zippy have a name for your kind.. Sheeple

    Do you get your pirated games from bin-laden.plc or off some site which has a few "click em if you want to" adverts?? Who "buys" pirated games?? skill-less and talentless and know nothing n00bs, that's who.

    Me.. I come from the real world where your business models and love to make mega millionaires out of the few by your desire to be ripped off are out dated, outmoded and dead in the water.

    A message from the future.. either develop a way to sell fairly or we will take and share. We the people have become the power.. now go and cry in your corner about how your mega rich heroes that you love to do without to support are missing out on a few more $$$'s....



    Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

    15.2.2008 04:20 #14

  • kyo28

    Quote:And along comes somebody who believes that dwnloading something completely for free somehow supports terrorism.. OOO.. I bet Brown and Bush and the mpaa/riaa just love people like you.. Me and Zippy have a name for your kind.. Sheeple
    Where did I use the word terrorist? With "shady organizations" I mean people who install batteries of DVD-R or Rom copiers in their garage or basement and hire some people to help them copy & distribute these illegal copies. I never mentioned terrorism as a factor here nor did I imply any relation between pirates and terrorist organizations. It's OK for you to make a point but now you're just putting words in my mouth.

    Anyway, when I like a game and think it's really good, I find it only natural to pay the price. Considering the investments necessary for the development of certain games, I find the price pretty reasonable. Remember, if Everyone would buy only pirated versions, then all those companies would basically stop producing games.

    "either develop a way to sell fairly or we will take and share.", you say. But please, explain to me what that means? What price would be a 'fair price' for games?

    15.2.2008 06:30 #15

  • varnull

    How about.. one that doesn't disadvantage those who are constantly bombarded by the media and told what they "must have" while attempting to eat and stay warm..

    These games can be sold at a profit at vastly lower prices than they are sold in the west.. How about a fair global price based on the least expensive country?

    The implication with the use of the term "shady people" is organised crime and terrorism.. the words always bandied about by the mpaa/riaa/console makers every time downloading is mentioned.. If I seem to be putting words in your mouth then maybe you should look at the implications that have been put on words by the propagandists.
    I have yet to see them PROVE downloading actually damages profits. What I do see is a wider customer base for the hardware.. people who can afford a console at $150, but cannot afford a recurring $50 for every game they are told is a "must have". Downloading if it has any effect democratizes the issue somewhat.. because I can if I chose download something for myself it takes away one sale from the "shady people".. because they will always be there, profiteering off the gullible and poor.

    This also applies in the field of music.. The record companies are currently trying to shaft the artists out of yet more of their already paltry share of their royalties and earnings.. People prove time and time again that they are happy to support the musicians and songwriters by going to concerts and buying merchandise.. what they have become thoroughly fed up with is paying middle men and executive fat cats an ever greater share of the generated income..

    It is very notable that musicians literally from the gutter have been rather silent on the whole issue.. all except those who have also sold their souls to "the man".. Arctic Monkeys anybody?

    Films are harder to quantify.. If piracy is so damaging why is just about every film released breaking all box office records? It certainly isn't from the pirates all buying tickets to take their cameras into the cinema.. so where is it all coming from? I smell shenannagins and lies from the MPAA and studios.. Why is it fair for some idiot like Tom Cruise to be paid in the tens of millions for a couple of weeks work, and for the studios to then expect to make for ever and ever because of the way they have cynically lobbied and pushed for the length of copyright to be extended and extended just so they can continue to exploit and profiteer from things that were made before our grandparents were born?? I don't claim the right to live off what my parents did, or grandparents for that matter.. why should studio execs and shareholders expect to profiteer off the work of the long dead and not get a rumble of dissent??

    Why do poor people steal from shops? Because the current system is inherently unfair to a large proportion of the population. It can either be leveled democratically or violently.. The way things are heading it will be the latter. The greedy always eventually fall, to be replaced by other greedy.. different colours, same problem. It's nice to see I pricked yet another nerve.

    So which side of this fence do you really sit on?? after all you are a member of a site which actively encourages breaking the DMCA and copying games and films either by downloading them or buying or borrowing or renting to copy or whatever.. Afterdawn it a pirates goldmine.. it tells them exactly how to duplicate this content regardless of laws specifically put in place to stop said behaviour..
    As it is ILLEGAL to break the encryption on a movie to make a copy, and it is also ILLEGAL to circumvent the copy protections on games to copy them is it any more illegal to download the content which has had these protections stripped from it?

    Quote: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others
    George Orwell - Animal Farm



    Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

    15.2.2008 06:46 #16

  • chaos_zzz

    Originally posted by amf0802: when these people estimate how much they lost due to piracy, their is an assumption in their thinking that isn't necessarily true.

    They assume that all the people that own pirated games would have bought the legit game if the pirated versions were unavailable. But this isn't true, someone may only buy a game because the pirated version is a fraction of the cost.

    I've watched plenty of games and tried lots of software only because they were easily available on the net. I never would have actually payed for them.    true here in peru ppl buy alot of games but not beacause they really really like them, is just beacuse they are cheap except on the ps3 in wich piracy still hasn't got in yet, friends that own a ps3 are very carefull on what games to buy most of htme have only 2 oe 3 the top is 5 i think

    15.2.2008 08:01 #17

  • ChiknLitl

    I wonder how they come up with these numbers. I never would have bought my DS if it weren't for the R4. Hence, i have not bought one game yet for it, and don't intend to if i can help it! There are wayyy too many crap games out there. The point is my intent was never to buy a DS in the first place without the sweet R4/M3 so at least they got my money for the DS.

    15.2.2008 08:47 #18

  • burnin1

    "The unprecedented momentum enjoyed by Nintendo DS and Wii makes Nintendo an attractive target for counterfeiters," said Jodi Daugherty, Nintendo of America's senior director of anti-piracy. "We estimate that in 2007, Nintendo, together with its publishers and developers, suffered nearly $975 million USD worldwide in lost sales as a result of piracy. Nintendo will continue to work with governments around the world to aggressively curtail this illegal activity."

    I wanna know how they go those figures too... Oh wait I know they pulled that estimate right out of there @ss! I was considering getting a wii, but not after this fabrication nintendo has come up with.
    AS far as know you cant pirate a nintendo wii console. More nintendo wii's and DS's sold = more money for nintendo.

    15.2.2008 09:36 #19

  • SProdigy

    Actually, I think Nintendo is referring to China's piracy of the NES... YES THE NES, not the Wii or Ds, NES!!!

    I saw a few years back that the patent had expired on the NES and there are all kinds of 3rd party systems that play the cartridges now. It was even in an issue of EGM (I think) that they said there was a pirate copy of the new Harry Potter film out in Asia, Korea, etc. Yes, HARRY POTTER ON NES! They are even coding pirate games now! Supposedly, NES is still a top seller over there.

    Also, consider all of the downloading with ROMS and emulators, and even the "controller" systems that hook up directly to the TV and play games like Super Mario Bros. (I've even seen them on sale at the good old suburban malls, not just street corners and flea markets.)

    Nintendo is saying that the Wii and DS are attractive targets, but in fact, their wares have been pirated for years before these consoles were even thought of. They are just trying to protect their IP now before it gets out of hand. (Original Xbox anyone?)

    15.2.2008 11:04 #20

  • lindy41

    For the amount of people that actually know how to backup or download games on wii's or ds is very slim....if they really look at it there not losing alot of money....they are losing alot of money but its not because of piracy its the fact that no one likes nintendo systems..

    15.2.2008 13:07 #21

  • hm577

    Stealing a game here and there is acceptable to most (consumers) but those who rampantly leach off society by pirating EVERYTHING and BUYING NOTHING.............well...........they're just mindless, simpleton, waste-of-life, LOSERS who have no respect, integrity and maturity what-so-ever. Another thing, If you're reading this and you honestly fit the description above then .................you're as valuable to this earth as a corpse unburied and you'd be better to us dead.

    15.2.2008 13:43 #22

  • ikari

    @varnull

    Before I say this, I want to make this clear, I am not insulting you or your opinion. In fact, I respect your opinion and offer another point of view and a few questions.

    I am curious why you think downloading games, music, and films is not stealing? Is it because it is a digital copy and there is no phyical representation of what someone might have stolen?

    15.2.2008 17:31 #23

  • Sazaziel

    Originally posted by ikari: @varnull

    Before I say this, I want to make this clear, I am not insulting you or your opinion. In fact, I respect your opinion and offer another point of view and a few questions.

    I am curious why you think downloading games, music, and films is not stealing? Is it because it is a digital copy and there is no phyical representation of what someone might have stolen?    In defense of varnull and subjecting my own opinion.... it is not stealing because it was never stolen in the first place. This is where you fail to realize that it is actually sharing because someone already paid for it and provided the content ready and available to a free market or free world. Companies who thrive off of consumer dollars have a problem with this and feel that they are being cheated because it is sharing in mass numbers. For example lets take game rentals or movie rentals etc. Companies like Blockbuster and Hollywood have already paid for the product. They just don't offer the free service of using or owning the product. So they in turn thrive of of the consumer dollar just like other companies while depending on consumer purchases in mass numbers.

    It's no different than if I distributed free software for everyone to use. Since it is taught to societies that the value of money is what makes the world go round....a lot of people have a twisted view of what the world should be in revolving around currency when in fact it should be as free as Linux. These companies aren't making money since someone bought the product and then afterward provides it freely, so they trick you with all sorts of EULA's . I dislike pirates who uses one free work for profit but, one who has paved the way by purchasing the product and decides to share freely has all of the respect in the world from a person like me and I would do the same for anyone on the site who believes in this way. True freedom lies within it and I'm tired of society being forced or tricked into giving their freedom away just so companies who don't give a damn about people like us can make a quick buck.

    So I hope I made it as understandable as possible.

    15.2.2008 19:37 #24

  • Sazaziel

    Originally posted by hm577: Stealing a game here and there is acceptable to most (consumers) but those who rampantly leach off society by pirating EVERYTHING and BUYING NOTHING.............well...........they're just mindless, simpleton, waste-of-life, LOSERS who have no respect, integrity and maturity what-so-ever. Another thing, If you're reading this and you honestly fit the description above then .................you're as valuable to this earth as a corpse unburied and you'd be better to us dead.I'm trying to figure out what this member was thinking but, I cant. I consider a means of stealing a game by a consumer meaning to go into a vendor and actually steal the physical product without being caught. Now things like this tarnish society because it causes high dollar inflation for paying consumers like us.

    Now for the game to be purchased and then the content be shared really doesn't mandate stealing. It doesn't even fall under the terms of receiving stolen property because it was never stolen in the first place. Physical evidence can be stolen... but if the content provider still owns the original....well I would say the only one who can report it as stolen would be the actual consumer who purchased the product. It's a digital world appears to be a more free world and companies who fail to convert to it try to play catch up by punishing us with by means of imprisonment and intimidation.

    We had finally found something to call ours and now corporations are involving world governments to enforce corporate laws in cyberspace. But tell me....where is cyberspace? Cyberspace has no physical form so it is not possible for it to be governed but, companies like nintendo think otherwise.

    15.2.2008 19:59 #25

  • varnull

    Now we are getting to the core of the subject..

    An Italian Judge threw out a case against a downloader because "No evidence could be afforded that any crime had been committed. The downloader had not sought to make any monetary profit from his action," the legal definition of piracy.. and stated clearly that given the alternative of paying some inflated price for the content would not have done so. Allegations that he had shared the content freely with other people "unknown" were also dismissed as unfounded as again loss could not be defined.
    The case was thrown out as no actual criminal behaviour could be found and no loss to the owner of the material proven.

    It's like.. I sit on the street outside your house and watch your cable tv through the window..with or without your consent.. am I stealing from you? Can you prove you have lost anything?

    The days of the big media companies and their paid lacky governments are over, they know it and are now going to attempt to use threats and tyranny to attempt to cling on to what remains of their failed monopoly They have lost, and they know it. It is up to us to remain set in our ways, and demand they either change their business models or go the way of every other business that has failed to modernise.

    comments on this? http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12740.cfm



    Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

    15.2.2008 20:31 #26

  • DXR88

    kyo28 - I agree with you to an extent i always try a game before i buy it, however demo's are crippleware and can hurt sells more than Software Pirates. i will always buy the original if it is worth the money if it is not there is a thing called (Delete)when i as a individuale decide that its not worth my money.

    varnull- Quote:The unprecedented momentum enjoyed by Nintendo DS and Wii makes Nintendo an attractive target for counterfeiters," said Jodi Daugherty, Nintendo of America's senior director of anti-piracy.it is this hag that Proably dosent know her head from her ass about what really is going on in digital age,and to pin this on nintendo
    isn't cool, but we all know its suits from Corperate America that pin this crap on other people, if you want a theory here's one
    if America Keeps bullying other Country's The only way to obtain a New pruduct from those countrys is to pirate it..there is nothing stoping other nations from cuting of are Suply of goods. if they did that we could weaken and give other nations a clear shot to take over america.

    America Takes From other nations and gives nothing in return..

    15.2.2008 21:36 #27

  • don010

    nintendo acts like people get the pirated games and open a major corparation and have a huge sign up that says free F***ing nintendo games

    nowadays you cant stop pirating by inforcing a law you need to make a pirate proof console
    so far there's no pirating going on, on the ps3 but some have started on the 360 and the wii

    and so what if people are pirating your games you cant stop them anymore cause like the psp people take the game files on the umd and put it on storage websites like megaupload and rapidshare

    you cant stop that even worse than that people can torrent the stuff lol

    so if your systems games are getting pirated that means you didn't put alot of effort into making your system and games homebrew and pirate proof

    17.2.2008 16:52 #28

  • obis

    I really agree with Varnull's thoughts. But I just want to add some of my experiencea. Let me start with, I have been a Nintendo fan from the time they came out with the gameboy. I have bought many gameboys because of backwards compatability. I have traveled extensively and ever since nintendo has been around there have been game pirates. When I lived in korea maybe around 1988 or 89 and I saw an imitation nintendo that would play nintendo games, sega games and conterfit games (they sold cartridges that had 4 - 8 game on card). I remember seeing games like super mario brothers 1,2 and 3, tetris and megaman all on one card, some cards had nintendo and sega games together on 1 card. I would never buy something like this not because I think its evil or immoral, I would never buy this because it was made of crap. When you opened the cover of the console you could see it was only held together by an aluminum frame and a few screws. My point is when something is good there is always going to be imitators and pirates. Everyone knows that now its just easier with the internet. Its not Nintendos fault that people pirate there games, it just goes with the territory. Piracy really created the market for this ipod. I think nintendo has not behaved like companies such as the MPAA, the RIAA and Microsuck yet and that is somewhat respectable, when other companies find their preciouse intellectual properties being used in ways that they didnt intend, they started suing everyone until there are too many people doing it to control. I still have my original gameboy and it still works, that means it has worked for 20 years. I have bought pc's that dont even last 3 years for over 10x the cost. As for operating systems I cant keep a virus off of an xp box for more than a couple of days after installation without serious antiviral software and a firewall, (thank you Linux developers for offering an alternative) there is something seriously wrong with an OS like that. I have multiple development cards for my handhelds but I might have considered purchasing a gamepark instead of a DS if I thought I would get sued for using an emulator to run game I have already purchased. But again I do agree that if I bought some cartridge from some vendor on the street, pre-loaded with 50 games, I would be doing a disservice to Nintendo and game developers everywhere. But having a R4DS or a supercard certainly doesnt make me a lowlife, I use colors to sketch idea's without wasting paper, I use a Nitrotracker , DSorganize and many other homebrew apps. I know most of you all have heard everything I am writing before but I just really dont want to see nintendo die and hypothetically have the ever unreliable, always broken xbox as the ruler of the gaming world. Nintendo has good quality products and they should stand behind them, overpriced they may be a bit. But piracy didnt kill the music industry like the music industry thought it would, it only changed it.

    19.2.2008 11:26 #29

  • goodswipe

    I'll tell you what Nintendo needs to solve! They need to have an unlimited supply of Wii's at all times! I bought one a while back off CL because I couldn't find any in the stores here in my town. Well, I ended up needing the money so I had to part with my beloved Wii after only one month of owning the thing.

    I refuse to pay 150 dollars more for this system on CL! Nintendo, where are the Wii's?

    "look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

    19.2.2008 11:37 #30

  • ikari

    Originally posted by varnull: Now we are getting to the core of the subject..

    An Italian Judge threw out a case against a downloader because "No evidence could be afforded that any crime had been committed. The downloader had not sought to make any monetary profit from his action," the legal definition of piracy.. and stated clearly that given the alternative of paying some inflated price for the content would not have done so. Allegations that he had shared the content freely with other people "unknown" were also dismissed as unfounded as again loss could not be defined.
    The case was thrown out as no actual criminal behaviour could be found and no loss to the owner of the material proven.

    It's like.. I sit on the street outside your house and watch your cable tv through the window..with or without your consent.. am I stealing from you? Can you prove you have lost anything?

    The days of the big media companies and their paid lacky governments are over, they know it and are now going to attempt to use threats and tyranny to attempt to cling on to what remains of their failed monopoly They have lost, and they know it. It is up to us to remain set in our ways, and demand they either change their business models or go the way of every other business that has failed to modernise.

    comments on this? " target="_blank">http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12740.cfm

    Okay, so I guess my next question is, what is your modernized business model? Is it downloadable content, because companies have done it. While a lot of the music is still not available yet, it is still happening.

    But what about games? If you could download games from the developer would you? Or would you still download them from bt sites?

    I guess my big issue, is that some people want drm-less content for the sole purpose of stealing. Basically, making or making available copies for others to keep and not pay for. That is stealing, regardless of how rich and greedy the company that sells it is. There are a lot of grey areas in life. This one is black & white.

    The price of a product or service does not justify if it is okay to steal it or not. It would seem a lot of people think that it is. If you find that the product or service is not fairly priced, then wait a while, most things go down in price the long the product or service is around. It is how the economy works (for the most part of course, there are exceptions). A good example is the price of game consoles. I didn't buy one until recently because I thought the price was too high for me. When it got into a more acceptable range I bought it.

    20.2.2008 12:06 #31

  • Sazaziel

    Okay Ikari.... "in your own opinion" it's stealing. Because your such an angel on this site that you've never downloaded anything on the net nor have you uploaded anything to share to share with anyone either. I usually don't take shots at anyone on this site and even though you are valid to have your own opinion...your comment was quite hypocritical. You're are another one of those people on this site that I question...What are you here for? If you've been on this site for years now then you would know what the majority of us here are all about. Even after the Finnish government got involved...we are still about the same thing.

    It's actually a slap in the face because you're calling us out as criminals but, I guess in a way that only you feel you can sleep safely at night about.

    So since you have this highly inflated number of $975 million dollars in your pocket...then why dont you go and pay nintendo back what they claim they loss and I'm sure they will quit whining...NOT!!!

    Companies like nintendo lose out on profits every year no matter what and thats the truth about how economics works. Like wall street you win some and you lose some but if your not competitive enough then I guess you'll whine and start blaming and pointing fingers like a lot of people do. You probably don't even realize that even local game trader businesses hurt profits for companies because the used goods sell before the new and companies like nintendo can't double dip and monopolize off of that profit. Yet anything new that has been purchased by the game trader companies from the manufacturers like nintendo have already been paid for in a limited supply as well. And guess what... even they lose profits on a new sale compared to used but, they don't make claims that they loss $975 million and blame it on piracy. You might want to get your facts straight since you wear a halo around your head and all. The truth is that not everyone is downloading some game for free off of someone else. Not everyone worldwide is going to purchase the same game once it releases and no one is twisting their arm to make them purchase the product. I own a majority of every game system created since the 70's until present along with a walk-in closet full of proof, yet I don't play them all nor do I have every game ever produced by its publisher. Wii and DS sales have been hot even till this very day. Some people want one just to have one...but different strokes for different folks. Some things in life are just a risk or a gamble...even with new products. No one knows whose to blame but, they blame someone anyways. Even death is a part of life and people die but instead of it just being their time... someone always blames somebody or something and then makes a claim that it could've been prevented. It's no different than frivolous lawsuits. Nintendo can say they lost $975 million in profits due to crack heads and you'd probably believe it.

    If you don't get my point which is pretty much valid based a whole lot on fact vs. statistics then I'm sure lots of other people here do. Yet as I stated you are entitle to your own opinion and I'll respect that.

    20.2.2008 21:02 #32

  • ikari

    @Sazaziel

    I figured someone was going to get a wee bit upset at what I was saying. Why are you so upset at an opposing view of the subject?
    I also somehow doubt you respect my opinion based on your response. Don't go claiming you respect someone's opinion and then start personally attacking them. There is no reason to personally attack me for stating my opinion. If I insulted varnull, they can tell me and I will apologize. All I wanted was to hear their side and discuss it. Not attack them. If I insulted you by the previous comments, I am sorry. It was only to spark discussion and conversation.

    I never once said I didn't do the things you and I mentioned. I never ever claimed or ever will claim that I am an angel or never did/do anything wrong. Is it hypocritical? Sure. Have you been hypocritical? Sure, we all have. Can't I offer another opinion that differs instead of shaking my head in agreement like everyone else?

    I also don't know what my opinion has to do with my sleeping habits but I do sleep well, as I have a new comfy bed.

    I wish I had a billion dollars laying around, don't you? Would I give it to nintendo?..no. Would I give it to any company losing money?..no.

    Don't assume I am an idiot and believe everything that people tell me. Don't assume that I am a perfect little angel. Because I am not. As for calling everyone here criminals, I never once said that. If you want to assume it based on my comments go ahead. If I wanted to call everyone here criminals, I would have.

    Do I sound upset? I am. Mostly because you took it upon yourself to personally attack me, even if you claim you rarely "take shots" on others. If you wouldn't have personally attacked me, I would have loved to continue with the conversation about the OP. However, now that I know you will personally attack me, I have no desire.

    I thought everyone was here to share their opinions and information to make this site the great site it is today. Not to get attacked.

    21.2.2008 12:10 #33

  • varnull

    Quote:I guess my big issue, is that some people want drm-less content for the sole purpose of stealing. Basically, making or making available copies for others to keep and not pay for. That is stealing, regardless of how rich and greedy the company that sells it is. There are a lot of grey areas in life. This one is black & white. NO.. we want drm-free content so that once we have paid for it we can use it privately for our own requirements and not have to pay again and again to.. for instance.. watch the film on our ipods.

    Where is the "stealing" in that scenario.. the content has been paid for.??

    Making content freely available for others still can't be defined as stealing.. otherwise this would be a criminal matter.. like shoplifting/burglary, instead of a civil matter.

    I would advise taking your head out of your a$$ before you get called an MPAA/RIAA stooley..

    Same question I put to somebody else..

    If you feel so strongly that we don't have the right to use what we have paid for freely and without stupid drm restrictions why are you a member of a site that actively encourages "stealing"??



    Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

    21.2.2008 12:27 #34

  • ikari

    Okay, gloves are off now.

    What the heck is wrong with both of you? Why can't I or others state an opposing view without getting personally attacked?

    I never said anything about personal use did I? You quoted me saying SOLE PURPOSE!!! Did I say anything about fair use like putting to a portable device? NO!

    I just want to discuss the opposing view. Why can't I do this? I guess a better question is, why can't I do this without people getting sore about it? Why are you so upset that I stated an opposing opinin? Do I just need to nod my head like a sheep? Do I have to agree with everything you said/say?

    You want to know why I am a part of this site? Because I read the tech new, and sometimes reply. I read the hardware guides. I used to read the ps2 game backup guides. YES, I back up all of the games (about 50 now) that I bought. So do I believe in fair use? YES!!! I am very much for it. Am I for someone that dls a game they don't own and burn it to disk to keep? NO. Am I calling everyone here thives and criminals. NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

    Sorry for having an opinion that is different than yours and want to disucss it with the knowledgable people on this site. All I was hoping was to get your take on the questions I ask you. That was all. I never wanted to insult or upset you, which I apparently did. As I told Sazaziel, if I did insult you for the previous posts, tell me and I will apologize.

    21.2.2008 13:11 #35

  • Sazaziel

    It's not wrong for you to have an opinion as I stated this at the beginning and the end of my post...that you are entitled to your own opinion. You don't have to listen to me nor do you have to agree with me. I'm not offended by your post either. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that when a lot of members on this site log on and read news about companies claiming millions of dollars in losses over piracy, or how they sued the average Joe or Jane for damages exceeding what the actual d/l was worth along with other news. You have to remember those same average people, the members of the Pirate Bay, along with many other people who feel oppressed as these billion dollar companies feel as we have wronged them in some way. We are these people. We are the people these billion dollar a year companies are placing the blame on. They fail to realize we as the general public are the same people who have brought them fame and success but, they label us as thieves and criminals. These companies act as if they deserve something for free and if we don't comply then they intimidate you and try to take something away from you by force. If we did anything to stop their flow of revenue then this will be the time that companies realize that people they have accused are really pissed off about labeling their devoted fans as criminals.

    I only agree that someone who sells copies of ones work illegally for profit should be charged with piracy. But someone who shares the paid for item is not a pirate. These companies..especially Microsoft (for example)got so pissed about downloads of there Windows OS being available online to download that they start issuing licenses to individual owners as well as stating that you have to pay additional licensing fees to add the OS to another PC. I have 12 PC's in my home (5 laptops and 7 desktops). We use all of them. Windows...even Vista Ultimate retails for near $400 as did XP Pro. In your opinion after I spent damn near a car payment on an operating system... should I have been happy to bend over and accept the fact that Microsoft customer support told me that I can only add XP Pro to just one of my home PC's unless I purchase additional licensing! Even now as we speak I have 2 Xbox 360's and have to transfer my account to which ever one I play because I cant have my account for both of them. It's not that you offended me in any way but, if you were in my shoes.... just tell me how as the consumer that would make you feel.

    21.2.2008 15:45 #36

  • ikari

    @Sazaziel

    Your last response is a perfect example of the the kinds of conversations I like to have! I am sorry for the harsh comments on my last post to you.

    Now back to your response. All excellent and valid points. And I agree, it is just silly for a company to say they lost almost a billion dollars to pricy. With some of the figures that are shown on AD articles I wonder if the company threw a few darts on a dart board full of dollar amounts. But there has to be some loss, that all I am saying.

    In regards to stealing and priacy, after re-reading my posts, I think I will clarify what I meant.

    1) Lets say you bought a music cd. You make a copy for yourself. I don't think that is stealing. I, like I am sure most of you, have had a CD that you really really like and it got all scratched up. It sucks. When I buy a CD, I make a backup copy. I have a box of CDs and on several occasions had to throw away my backup copy and make another because it was so badly scratched. As others have posted, if the record company would just replace them for free, I wouldn't make a backup copy. This also applies converting from cd to mp3 player.

    2) Lets say you bought a music cd. You make a copy for yourself. Then you start making copies and handing them out to people free of charge for them to own. I think that is stealing. But let me explain. Are you the one stealing? No, you bought the music cd. Are you helping others steal? Yes, because they didn't buy the cd. If they would have bought it from you, you would be a priate.

    3) Lets say you dl an album from bt that you don't own. Is that stealing? Well, if you keep it, yes. If you listened to it, hated it and deleted it, No.

    In regards to MS, first, wow 12 pcs!!!!! I thought I had a lot with 6. Do my 6 PCs now have 6 unique legally purchased licences? Yes. Have they 100% of the time I have owned them? Errrr....ummmmm...

    I know exactly what you mean, though. I would like to see one key for every X number of PCs. Not a 1 for 1. I don't think it is very fair for the consumer. Not one bit. But that is how it is setup right now. Hopefully, they will make it more consumer price friendly. Doubtful though.

    21.2.2008 17:42 #37

  • borhan9

    I also agree pirated games should be stopped however the ability to play ntsc and pal games on the one machine should b there.

    9.4.2008 01:35 #38

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