Dreamworks "stuck" with Toshiba, HD DVD

Dreamworks Studios has announced that they are still "locked" into an exclusivity deal with Toshiba to distribute their movies on HD DVD only and would continue to do so until Toshiba tells them differently.

"We have a partnership with Toshiba and have an obligation to see this through," DreamWorks Chief Executive Jeffrey Katzenberg said.

"As you know, we have been well-compensated for our support. It really is in their court at this point to really declare what the next step will be. We're poised either way to jump into the marketplace when the conditions are right to do so," he added.

Katzenberg's comments seem to imply that all the past rumors were indeed correct and Dreamworks and Paramount were paid over $150 million USD to go HD DVD-exclusive for 18 months. It seems however that Paramount had a different clause in there contract because they recently dropped HD DVD in favor of Blu-ray.

Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 27 Feb 2008 18:25

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96 comments

Mik3h

..Unlucky!

27.2.2008 18:43 #1

error5

Quote:"As you know, we have been well-compensated for our support. Well, well. It's confirmed then. There was really a payoff from Toshiba.

Now I think the lawyers are still going at it as to how much money Dreamworks Animation has to return to Toshiba.

27.2.2008 19:14 #2

vinny13

Lol it's like watching your friends all leave on vacation and your still stuck at home, a bored loner :P

27.2.2008 19:20 #3

milkyoreo

Dreamworks is gonna have to switch to Blu Ray if the players are gonna become popular, with Dreamworks there would be more children's movies on Blu Ray

27.2.2008 19:46 #4

escalante

Quote:with Dreamworks there would be more children's movies on Blu RayAs if we need any more! Disney has been Blu-ray exclusive from the start if I'm not mistaken.

27.2.2008 20:48 #5

Moomoo2

Katzenberg should have never left Disney I guess.

Shrek 7 is HD DVD only? Aw shucks!

27.2.2008 21:04 #6

jove

...lolz dumbasses. they should have seen this coming. what loyalty? what consumer satisfaction and all that? you go where the money is and the whole industry chose blu ray. better or not. like it or not. they might as well reject the format and do vhs or something else cuz of how cheap it might be...

27.2.2008 21:26 #7

Sudds

Sony werent the only ones handing out the cash...

27.2.2008 21:26 #8

hulud86

That sucks for them

27.2.2008 21:49 #9

jcur31

150 million!! That's where Toshiba went wrong, Sony had to Pony up a whole lot more for exclusive support. Maybe that's why Sony TV's cost so much more, it's not quality, it's all the pockets they had to line to buy the next gen DVD market. Well that and Payton Manning.

27.2.2008 22:46 #10

camaro17

this sucks man.

Peace

27.2.2008 23:05 #11

juankerr

Simply a no-win situation for Dreamworks Animation.

Either they:

1. Return a good portion of the pay-off money to Toshiba

or

2. Wait until the end of the 18 months before releasing on BD

I wonder if the lawyers could iron out some sort of a deal.

27.2.2008 23:20 #12

vinny13

Originally posted by jcur31: 150 million!! That's where Toshiba went wrong, Sony had to Pony up a whole lot more for exclusive support. Maybe that's why Sony TV's cost so much more, it's not quality, it's all the pockets they had to line to buy the next gen DVD market. Well that and Payton Manning.Nope... I'm pretty sure its the quality :P

Their XBR5s are like way up there, the best in LCD, but they cost an arm and a leg and maybe a couple extra fingers too!

I, Mr. Cheap, bought a Sharp LC-42D64U for $1300 and it's like the best TV you'll find up to like $2500 :)

Oh and those Payton Manning commercials are good lol

27.2.2008 23:20 #13

pensfan12

27.2.2008 23:59 #14

ZippyDSM

Mmm dose Toshiba do any disc production? :P

28.2.2008 00:04 #15

elfman12

Dreamworks more than likely is just pushing for a better payout. If, let's say, their deal was for $90million for 18 months of exclusivity, and they've only completed 6 months of that, then Toshiba is probably saying that the $90m should be adjusted to $30m.

Dreamworks probably wants to bump that up more, and making a public stink about it might help their cause. But the fair way would be to prorate that number, IMO.

28.2.2008 00:19 #16

ZippyDSM

Quote:Originally posted by jcur31: 150 million!! That's where Toshiba went wrong, Sony had to Pony up a whole lot more for exclusive support. Maybe that's why Sony TV's cost so much more, it's not quality, it's all the pockets they had to line to buy the next gen DVD market. Well that and Payton Manning.
People still find a way to bash Sony about paying off studios after Toshiba did it. crazy.2 or 3 studios,sony paid off retail chains, rental stores and the studios that were not locked into a contract.
so much for consuemrs choosing formats :P

28.2.2008 00:21 #17

Ludikhris

Quote:Quote:Originally posted by jcur31: 150 million!! That's where Toshiba went wrong, Sony had to Pony up a whole lot more for exclusive support. Maybe that's why Sony TV's cost so much more, it's not quality, it's all the pockets they had to line to buy the next gen DVD market. Well that and Payton Manning.
People still find a way to bash Sony about paying off studios after Toshiba did it. crazy.2 or 3 studios,sony paid off retail chains, rental stores and the studios that were not locked into a contract.
so much for consuemrs choosing formats :PMy team only took 2... Your team took 3!!! That makes you worse neener neener neener!!!

Seriously? Are we children? Based on the fact that both sides paid various supply chain components off either sides fan boys could scream "THE CONSUMER DIDN'T CHOOSE!" Give it a rest, both sides used the same tactics. Sony was just better at the game cause they have played it many times before and lost. They were due.

28.2.2008 02:24 #18

jcur31

Have both, Supported both from the beginning. My comment earlier was meant as a Joke not a bash on Sony. I am actually relieved, now they can move forward and I can start watching all the new movies in HD. Soon, no more trying to get to blockbuster first to rent the one copy they get in HD!! Yeah!! Well, except for Dreamworks it looks like.

Here is the funny thing, The biggest losers are not the early HD-DVD supporters who have a machine that will soon be obsolete, we always knew this was a possibility. It's the early adopters of the winning format, Blu-Ray, who spent upwards of almost a grand for a player that will not be able to take full advantage of the BD capabilities. Only now are they releasing BD 2.0 devices. Well unless you bought a PS3. Thank god I am in that crowd, although, a Sony supported IR device would be nice!!

28.2.2008 04:05 #19

Ryu77

Ludikris, I completely agree with you. As I said on numerous occasions, it's all business. The people making these Sony this, Sony that rubbish posts obviously have no business sense at all. We do need to remember that most the people making these crazy posts are either Kids or young Adults. We are conversing with people that are into gaming. As we know this attracts such a broad spectrum of ages.

Do you guys even half comprehend the scale that Sony operates business in? To pay $400,000,000 is nothing to them. It's not a bribe, it's called a contract. Obviously Sony considered that sum of money to be appropriate and would eventually bring profit. $400 million really isn't a lot of money to a company the size of Sony. Every business operates in the same manner just on a lesser scale. Sony have a lot more capital to play with. I can't even imagine the total bill that the Blu-ray project has cost to date.

Also, imagine how much Toshiba has invested in HD-DVD to date! Are they going to shut shop now because HD-DVD failed? I seriously doubt it. So what does that tell you? To me it says that the money they lost is considered collateral damage.

I said this in another thread but I'll say it again here as I think it's appropriate. Everything and anyone can be bought at a price. The only question is... How much?

28.2.2008 06:41 #20

jcur31

You have me wondering if Sony threw some of that cash Toshiba's way?

It might be just a coincidence that the new joint chip making venture between Toshiba and Sony starting at the beginning of this next fiscal year was announced just a day or two after Toshiba announced it was throwing in the towel.

Feb. 19 -- Toshiba formally announces it will phase out the production of HD DVD players and recorders by the end of March. The format war is over.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12035667...=googlenews_wsj

Toshiba, Sony Agree On Chip-Making Deal
A WALL STREET JOURNAL NEWS ROUNDUP
February 21, 2008; Page B3

Toshiba Corp. and Sony Corp. said they have agreed formally on a chip-making venture that will start operations next fiscal year.

In line with an accord in October, Toshiba will buy some of Sony's 300-millimeter-wafer production lines in western Japan for about 90 billion yen ($835 million). The companies said the deal will be completed by the end of March, and Toshiba will lease facilities to the venture, which will start operations April 1.

The venture will be 60% held by Toshiba, 20% by Sony and 20% by Sony Computer Entertainment Inc., Sony's game unit. The venture, which will be capitalized at 100 million yen, will make advanced chips used in Sony's PlayStation game consoles as well as in Toshiba's digital consumer goods

28.2.2008 07:46 #21

silk42

While it may sound like Dreamworks is in a really bad position, it's not really that bad. So they're not able to sell movies on Blu-Ray for another year or so, how much are they really losing? The biggest portion of movies are still sold on standard definition DVDs and they can still produce those without any problem. By the time Blu-Ray has a market large enough to make it extremely profitable, Dreamworks' contract with Toshiba will have expired.

28.2.2008 10:37 #22

emugamer

People who believe that the Consumer chooses probably also believe that the people choose the President.

28.2.2008 11:55 #23

Icanbe

Quote:Quote:Quote:Originally posted by jcur31: 150 million!! That's where Toshiba went wrong, Sony had to Pony up a whole lot more for exclusive support. Maybe that's why Sony TV's cost so much more, it's not quality, it's all the pockets they had to line to buy the next gen DVD market. Well that and Payton Manning.
People still find a way to bash Sony about paying off studios after Toshiba did it. crazy.2 or 3 studios,sony paid off retail chains, rental stores and the studios that were not locked into a contract.
so much for consuemrs choosing formats :PMy team only took 2... Your team took 3!!! That makes you worse neener neener neener!!!

Seriously? Are we children? Based on the fact that both sides paid various supply chain components off either sides fan boys could scream "THE CONSUMER DIDN'T CHOOSE!" Give it a rest, both sides used the same tactics. Sony was just better at the game cause they have played it many times before and lost. They were due.Excalty, two wrongs don't make a right.
He who pays the most, plays the most.

28.2.2008 12:45 #24

ikari

Ludikris/Ryu77

100% agree with you both.

In regards to the news article, I am shocked that Dreamworks didn't have some sort of exit claus in case some like this was to happen. Isn't that why company contracts like this are pages and pages long? For some reason, I can't help but think that Dreamworks is making an excuse.

28.2.2008 12:47 #25

videomake

Unfortunate it had to happen to one of the formats sooner or later.

holla

28.2.2008 14:37 #26

llongtheD

It just goes to show that the consumers really didn't get to choose. Both sony and toshiba payed off the studios, and consumers lost. The next gen format war went to the highest bidder. But I guess its no different than what the big corporations do with the politicians. I think I liked it better when consumers at least had the illusion that we were driving the market place.

28.2.2008 17:01 #27

lawndog

I said it before and I'll say it again, "money makes the world go around" Everybody pays everybody off. Those that don't believe that are fools. So here it is confirmed that Toshiba paid dreamworks. To be honest, does this surprise anybody. So what Sony just hides it better. Besides theres more ways to "pay" people besides just cash. Theres stock options, which is a major one. Theres trips, tickets all types of stuff.
The one thing that does impress me about this article is that they ARE honoring there agreement, well, at least for now. That means alot to some people. It is to bad that they are REALLY REALLY gonna hurt in the sales area though.

28.2.2008 19:46 #28

Gnawnivek

Originally posted by llongtheD: It just goes to show that the consumers really didn't get to choose. Both sony and toshiba payed off the studios, and consumers lost. The next gen format war went to the highest bidder. But I guess its no different than what the big corporations do with the politicians. I think I liked it better when consumers at least had the illusion that we were driving the market place.While your points make sense, but only in an ideal world... Consumers don't get to choose in the real world, they have voices (democracy). What can they do? Bitch and moan... I mean come on, do i ever get what i really want for my hard earned/saved money? NO, a fat no! If i'm lucky, i get something close to what i want... Trust me, we all do things at our own conveniences (like double parking), so the whole idea of consumer get to choose crap doesn't really exist. At some level, the decisions are made base on compromises and if you're lucky, the compromises are toward your favor. Bottom line? In the real world, consumers or clients, most of them don't know what they want (i.e. the "makers" have to make decisions for them). If the "makers" have to constantly update/communicate with the consumers/clients, nothing ever gonna get done (think of meetings at work place).

29.2.2008 09:42 #29

llongtheD

@Gnawnivek

Thats why I said I liked it better when we at least had the ILLUSION of choice. I'm well aware of who's really pulling the strings.

29.2.2008 09:55 #30

Sontiago

Greed almost always wins.

Smart consumers didn't make the choice. A smart consumer wouldn't have chosen the studio friendly, anti-consumer blue-ray over it's somewhat more consumer friendly hd.

Maybe the porn industry alone will keep HD floating unless sony changed there minds about porn..

29.2.2008 10:24 #31

wrowe

My Qestion, as an average Movie watcher, and not a Technofile is this. Why did HD lose out to BluRay? If you put the two side by side is BluRay vastley superior to HD, or did they win because they have a cooler name?

29.2.2008 10:41 #32

eatsushi

Something may be in the works.

Dreamworks Animation has just cancelled the HD DVD release of Bee Movie scheduled for March 11.

Paramount, as expected, has cancelled the HD DVD releases of Sweeney Todd, There Will Be Blood, The Jack Ryan Collection, and Kite Runner.

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?l...1&desc=topstory
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/D..._(UPDATED)/1522

29.2.2008 10:42 #33

A_Klingon

Quote:So here it is confirmed that Toshiba paid dreamworks. To be honest, does this surprise anybody. No, not in the slightest. If someone weren't trying to buy someone else off, then I'd have cause to worry.

It was a telltale, doomsday omen when Toshiba plunked down $2.7 Million for a 30-second Superbowl ad. A last desperate attempt, if you will, to stave off annilation. (Didn't work).

Since Toshiba is no longer supporting *retail* (commercial) Hollywood discs, I think they should let Dreamworks off the hook, and concentrate (as I believe they said they were going to do), on blank HD-DVD media and PC drives/other gizmos. At least that would help spur-on Blu-Ray in the Movie Biz. Tie up all the remaining loose ends; end the losing contracts, do whatever damage-control they need to and just move on.

Blu-Ray's here, we gotta live with it, so BRING IT ON BABY! :)

29.2.2008 11:27 #34

llongtheD

I disagree with you klingon, we don't have to live with it. For me, since I really don't play that many video games, I won't buy a PS3. So unless the price of blueray players drop dramatically, I won't buy one. Wait until Sony's subsidies to the movie industry run out, what will be the cost of players and discs then? I know I won't plunk down 300-400 bucks for a player and 30 for each movie, and alot of other people won't either. If the players drop down to a hundred bucks or less, and 20 a movie, then I might be willing to learn to live with sony's DRM infested format. Sales of blueray players and discs are still extremely poor when compared to dvd, so we will see if enough people are willing to pony up, to make it a success.

29.2.2008 11:50 #35

Gnawnivek

Originally posted by llongtheD: @Gnawnivek

Thats why I said I liked it better when we at least had the ILLUSION of choice. I'm well aware of who's really pulling the strings.yeap, the word ILLUSION is well applied... It looks like the consumers are making some kind choice, but they're not really doing it :)

29.2.2008 12:27 #36

sgriesch

Doesn't it suck when you are on a sinking boat, and you are a not allowed by the captain to evacuate? I'm sure that Dreamworks has already prepared everything for the switch. Time IS money, and that is all they are concerned with. As soon as they get the go-ahead, they will have titles ready to be produced on Blu.

29.2.2008 14:56 #37

Ludikhris

consumer didn't choose arguement

This isn't true because the consumer can still choose. Apathy is a vote for BR though. In this case letters could be written and a boycott could be placed on BR. The consumer still has final say. Guess what though? Of the vast everyones, the few people here that a die hard HD-DVD fans will be drowned out. People don't care because the differences between the two formats was insignificant.

The more consumer friendly option lost

This point is never proven by anyone, they just repeat it over and over. Stronger blocks against piracy is not anticonsumer. Root kits are, sure, but they aren't part of BRay. Let's start a good list of which is more consumer friendly, I'll start.

Blu-Ray
- Better advertising for more customer awareness
- Better copy protection limiting piracy which in turn lowers the price of media. Piracy for the sake of theft increases prices, piracy for fair use keeps prices flat. That's why prices of items are cheaper as more people buy them. If you want more explaination buy an econ book.

I won't list tech specs because really tech specs aren't necessarily pro-consumer because they are tied to a price.

When you say "Pro Consumer" I have the feeling that you guys don't mean "pro consumer" you mean "pro pirate". Sure I am for being able to rip videos to my own devices when I buy them, but that is what DVDs are for. They are much easier to rip and edit than HDDVD or BRay will ever be. I know they aren't going anywhere anytime soon so I am all good.

29.2.2008 15:38 #38

goodswipe

Quote:consumer didn't choose arguement

This isn't true because the consumer can still choose. Apathy is a vote for BR though. In this case letters could be written and a boycott could be placed on BR. The consumer still has final say. Guess what though? Of the vast everyones, the few people here that a die hard HD-DVD fans will be drowned out. People don't care because the differences between the two formats was insignificant. Well duh! Of course the consumer had a choice between Blu-ray or HD DVD, but did they REALLY choose because they like Blu-ray over HD DVD? No they didn't, I would say that 70 percent of the people out there chose Blu-ray over HD DVD either because they took a look at the studio support behind Blu-ray or a salesman told them to go Blu because of the studio support. Why buy a product that you can't put to full use?

If this were the other way around, HD DVD being the winner here, the same can be said for that. Someone would have seen the studio support behind HD DVD and would have been forced into buying the format with the most studio support.

I bought into this high-def craze early. There wasn't to many movies to choose from for either format at the time and I liked what HD DVD offered. So at that point I guess you could say I really had a choice. I do plan on buying a Blu-ray player in the future.

"look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

29.2.2008 15:55 #39

wrowe

I receive some HD Movies through my Cable supplier. Will this gruesome defeat of HDDVD have any effect in this area?

29.2.2008 16:13 #40

goodswipe

Originally posted by wrowe: I receive some HD Movies through my Cable supplier. Will this gruesome defeat of HDDVD have any effect in this area?HD movies through your cable provider? Like VOD? This shouldn't have any effect on what cable companies supply you with.

"look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

29.2.2008 16:19 #41

llongtheD

Quote:Better advertising for more customer awareness
- Better copy protection limiting piracy which in turn lowers the price of media. Piracy for the sake of theft increases prices, piracy for fair use keeps prices flat. That's why prices of items are cheaper as more people buy them. If you want more explaination buy an econ book. Better advertisement? I absolutely agree with you on that. But lower prices through DRM? Wake up and smell the coffee. The ultimate goal of this extravagant copy protection is to tie your disk to a particular device. When that happens, then talk to me about lower prices. I agree that mass producing, and adoption can lower prices, thats a no brainer. Just not when DRM is involved. Thats just my opinion I could be wrong.

29.2.2008 17:07 #42

ichido

No body is bashing Sony, but their stuff is more expensive than others for some things as TV's between $200 to $500 just for the name.
Thye had the better format all those years ago with Beta as opposed to VHS and this time I don't think they have the better format but they were there first, and last time as in Beta, they were later.

29.2.2008 17:41 #43

YOBUZZB

Why can't I stick with DVD's and just buy a DVD player that upconverts to High-Def? These are a lot cheaper than the BD Players and I'm not about buy all of my movies over again at a higher price and buy an expensive player! It's just not going to happen! As long as DVD's are made, they will be my choice.

I don't like anything with DRM protection or protection of any kind. I'm no pirate! I just don't like the idea that someone can dictate what I can and can't do with something I spend my money on!

My father would by a car that was governed at a certain speed. He would remove it. He hated for a car company to basically say, "Your car isn't allowed to go faster than this"! He say, "Then why build an engine that could go much faster? It made since to me then and makes since to me now!

29.2.2008 18:45 #44

Ludikhris

Quote:Quote:Better advertising for more customer awareness
- Better copy protection limiting piracy which in turn lowers the price of media. Piracy for the sake of theft increases prices, piracy for fair use keeps prices flat. That's why prices of items are cheaper as more people buy them. If you want more explaination buy an econ book. Better advertisement? I absolutely agree with you on that. But lower prices through DRM? Wake up and smell the coffee. The ultimate goal of this extravagant copy protection is to tie your disk to a particular device. When that happens, then talk to me about lower prices. I agree that mass producing, and adoption can lower prices, thats a no brainer. Just not when DRM is involved. Thats just my opinion I could be wrong.Coffee aside, this may have been thought of but would never pass with the consumers of today. Do you think people would put up with not being able to rent movies, or buy used movies, or borrow a friends movie? No. If that ever happened the consumer would ask for a new product and a new company like Toshiba would do something like revive HDDVD and bash the crap out of the overly constrictive DRM technology.

In the world we live in today, with the DRM of today, it is put in place to stop people for copying discs. I do have a problem when companies like Sony want to make you buy a movie twice so you can have it in your iPod too, but that is another fight. I believe you should be able to do that. However, the primary reason for DRM is to stop people for renting/borrowing a copy of a movie and copying it for their own use. My whole problem with DRM goes away when they allow everyone to get a free download of a movie when they buy a retail version. I want a copy on my PSP when I buy the BluRay version. If companies like Sony need to realize that consumers won't buy multiples of the same product, in the end they purchase the lowest common denominator and are done with it. "If I have it on DVD, why do I want teh BluRay version for $30 more?" Good question Mr General Consumer. Good Question.

29.2.2008 18:47 #45

Ryu77

Originally posted by Ludikhris: Coffee aside, this may have been thought of but would never pass with the consumers of today. Do you think people would put up with not being able to rent movies, or buy used movies, or borrow a friends movie? No. If that ever happened the consumer would ask for a new product and a new company like Toshiba would do something like revive HDDVD and bash the crap out of the overly constrictive DRM technology.

In the world we live in today, with the DRM of today, it is put in place to stop people for copying discs. I do have a problem when companies like Sony want to make you buy a movie twice so you can have it in your iPod too, but that is another fight. I believe you should be able to do that. However, the primary reason for DRM is to stop people for renting/borrowing a copy of a movie and copying it for their own use. My whole problem with DRM goes away when they allow everyone to get a free download of a movie when they buy a retail version. I want a copy on my PSP when I buy the BluRay version. If companies like Sony need to realize that consumers won't buy multiples of the same product, in the end they purchase the lowest common denominator and are done with it. "If I have it on DVD, why do I want teh BluRay version for $30 more?" Good question Mr General Consumer. Good Question.I have been trying to say this here on Afterdawn since day one. I think I may have finally found someone that feels exactly the same way as I do about DRM on Blu-ray.

I have made countless posts on this topic but very rarely do I get someone that agrees with me.

It is any persons right to prevent their property from being stolen. You don't see Car Thiefs up in arms... Saying "Hey, that's not fair! You put a GPS tracker in your Car. That's an invasion of privacy! Nobody should know where I drive your Car that I stole".

I haven't seen anything on Blu-ray that would indicate any restrictions on consumer enjoyment. I absolutely do not believe that Blu-ray would include a DRM that would lock you into using a single player. If it did, then I too would boycott Blu-ray. Can I ask... Where did this notion come from anyway? Is there any proof that Sony/Blu-ray intend to do this or is this a case of Chinese Whispers?

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

29.2.2008 19:24 #46

Ryu77

Originally posted by YOBUZZB: It made since to me then and makes since to me now!Are you from New Zealand?

Sorry, couldn't resist, I mean resest... :-P

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

29.2.2008 19:29 #47

YOBUZZB

Quote:Are you from New Zealand?Nope, I'm from Dallas, Texas, USA! What's your point?

29.2.2008 19:32 #48

Ryu77

Originally posted by YOBUZZB: Quote:Are you from New Zealand?Nope, I'm from Dallas, Texas, USA! What's your point?Think... Why did I say that? Don't get all aggressive now. It was meant to be funny.

Hint: Since = Sense.

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

29.2.2008 20:00 #49

YOBUZZB

Quote:Think... Why did I say that? Don't get all aggressive now. It was meant to be funny.

Hint: Since = Sense.
Duh! Ok. Got it. It is funny!

29.2.2008 20:04 #50

A_Klingon

I disagree with you klingon,

Okie, Dokie! :-)

we don't have to live with it.

You misunderstand me. No, *you* or *I* don't have to (personally) live with it, BUT Blu-Ray is in the 'Hollywood Movie system' and maistream consumer marketplace now. HD-DVD is not. Blu-Ray with all of it's yummy DRM is WITH us whether we like it or not. Don't buy it if you don't want to, but as it is now THE dominant #1 optical disc format, you DO have to live with that! As does everyone else. AND, if player prices drop enough (they will), and disc prices do the same (they will), you sir, will be living with it sooner than you think. (Or find another Hi-Def alternative, or else be left in the cold).

For me, since I really don't play that many video games,

Me neither; I can't stand video games. I have enough to do playing 'head games' with people all day at work! :)

...I won't buy a PS3.

Ditto. Nor will I, llongtheD.

If the players drop down to a hundred bucks or less, and 20 a movie, then I might be willing to learn to live with sony's DRM infested format.

Yep. "Infested" is a very good and appropriate word here. Another form of cancer.

But I think we'll be waiting a long, LONG time for $100 Blu-Ray players - I fear that's just not in the works (I *want* to be dead wrong about that!).

I think maybe folks have become far too accustomed to seeing (and paying) $50 & less for a regular DVD player at their local Walmarts and Best Buys. They have become very comfortable with that idea. But when (ordinary) DVD was first released, I paid a whopping $1,500 !!! for Sony's flagship dvd player, which in retrospect, didn't have the same capabilities that a $40 Samsung dvd player has today. (It was built a hell of a lot better though).

And despite Sony's despicable DRM, *IF* Blu-Ray does indeed deliver what it promises minus all the "extra" built-in bull----, then, (well really), the Player would be worth ALL of $100 and a lot more too. Your 1080i Hi-Def LCD monitor will love you.

(Real)High-Definition is a wonderful thing, and ya only gets what ya pays for, right?

(Ummmmm..... so, you were disagreeing with me?) :)

29.2.2008 22:47 #51

gerbs

Hey, little dude from Texas, home of the rabid capitalist that expect the many to make the few rich. You just don't understand it because your perspective is distorted by propaganda and american style brainwashing. DRM laws are there to assure the transfer of wealth from the many to the few. Sorry little dude, I will keep on poachin' from you royal bastards who have the money to buy the politicians who make the corporate laws you love so much!

29.2.2008 22:51 #52

Ryu77

Originally posted by gerbs: Hey, little dude from Texas, home of the rabid capitalist that expect the many to make the few rich. You just don't understand it because your perspective is distorted by propaganda and american style brainwashing. DRM laws are there to assure the transfer of wealth from the many to the few. Sorry little dude, I will keep on poachin' from you royal bastards who have the money to buy the politicians who make the corporate laws you love so much!I am from Australia... Doesn't that exclude me from American brainwashing? :-P As I posted earlier...

Originally posted by Ryu77: I haven't seen anything on Blu-ray that would indicate any restrictions on consumer enjoyment. I absolutely do not believe that Blu-ray would include a DRM that would lock you into using a single player. If it did, then I too would boycott Blu-ray. Can I ask... Where did this notion come from anyway? Is there any proof that Sony/Blu-ray intend to do this or is this a case of Chinese Whispers?I would really like to see this answered. Can anyone provide any real proof that Sony intend to lock Blu-ray discs into single players?

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

29.2.2008 23:30 #53

llongtheD

@ A_Klingon

Well said.

29.2.2008 23:58 #54

gerbs

Sorry, RYU77, I meant my comment for YOBUZZBY from Dallas, TX, but yes the whole damn world has suffered from American Political Corporation Brainwashing.

1.3.2008 01:11 #55

Ryu77

lol@gerbs... I figured that.

I still stand by my post though. I really would like to see proof that Sony plans to lock Blu-ray discs onto a single player... Anybody?

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

1.3.2008 01:16 #56

A_Klingon

Quote:I am from Australia... Doesn't that exclude me from American brainwashing? :-P As I posted earlier... Oh Wow! Tie me kangaroo down, boy.... <gg> I'm from Canada myself.

The folks from The Lone Star State ain't all bad, RYU77. They gave us two wonderful things I can think of right off the top of my head - the magnificient actor/comedian Steve Martin, and probably the greatest rock guitarist who ever lived - Mr. Stevie Ray Vaughan.

Oh yeah, and they make a Bitchin' barbequed steak, and don't forget the wonderful "King Of The Hill" cartoon series!

(Besides, if I tease them too much, they'll all gang up on me and beat me up!) ;-)

1.3.2008 05:06 #57

Ryu77

A_Klingon, I really don't have a problem with any Country at all. I have made friends in many Countries. I actually spent 3 months in Texas in 2005 to help kick off a business venture. My post was directed cheekily to gerbs.

I personally think that people are taking this DRM thing too far. It's almost psychopathic, like a severe case of Paranoia! Oh no.... It's the DRM monster again. Imagine waking up in the middle of the night screaming "The Rootkits are coming! The Rootkits are coming!".

These people seem to constantly talk about something that hasn't happened and hasn't shown any signs of happening. Until it does actually happen... I just wish they would shut up, put a Blu-ray movie into a flippin' player and enjoy the damn thing! There are two types of people in this World, they are optimists and pessimists. I believe that the optimist gets the most out of life. While the latter... Well I am sure that I don't need to state the obvious.

Seriously, I believe 100% that Sony will not do anything to restrict use of genuine Blu-ray discs on any capable Blu-ray platform to not be able to enjoy it as intended. If I am wrong about this, I will eat my words and then re-consider my position as a Blu-ray consumer.

Let's get one thing straight... There is a big difference between anti-consumer and anti-pirate.

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

1.3.2008 05:25 #58

A_Klingon

Quote:I personally think that people are taking this DRM thing too far.Noop. Quite the contrary, it's Sony who has taken DRM too far.

Quote:These people seem to constantly talk about something that hasn't happened and hasn't shown any signs of happening.It HAS happened. It's a known given. Blu-Ray is the most DRM-ridden optical disc format ever devised, and if Sony has their way, it will only get worse. They're DRM champions. Right up (down?) there with Microsoft. I'll explain below.

Quote:There are two types of people in this World, they are optimists and pessimists.You forgot the realists. They're the people who can see the 'forest for the trees'; the ones who can smell a rat a mile away; the ones who stand up for their rights as consumers; the ones who do not and will not take everything shoved down their throats (up their ass**?) by Big Business with vested interests; the ones who have been lied to before and don't intend to be led down the garden path with a ring through their nose ever again ("Once bitten, twice shy" - in Sony's case, they have bitten repeatedly); the ones who SHELL OUT THE BIG $$$ to keep the greedy corporations, their wives, mistresses, lawyers and families in BMWs and Florida Vacation resorts.

IMHO you have the right to make a legitimate Fair-Use backup of any expensive retail disc you have purchased. You can argue until you're "Blu" in the face <gg> that Sony's DRM is simply meant to protect what is theirs. Well! At $30-$35-a-pop, I have a right to protect what is mine too!

I'm not talking about dedicated PIRATES who make illegal copies right down to the packaging on a wholesale, massive basis - the studios have a legitimate concern there, but they have constantly used the lame excuse for years, crying into their champagnes all-the-way-to-the-bank, that it's all the paying *consumer's* fault.

DRM is not "Copy Protection" - it is Copy Corruption. A deliberate attempt to introduce so many Core Errors into the disc system so that you cannot make a backup copy on your home PC. The next time you buy a $35 Profile 2.0 disc and find it won't play on your older Sony Profile 1.1 player, maybe you'll start loathing DRM too.

I don't belive in 'DRM monsters', but I have seen enough Corporate Greed, paid-off politicians and corrupt attorneys to last a lifetime. DVD has been very very good to both the software and hardware industries if you ask me. Even today, with regular DVD, the newer waves of "copy protection" (you'll see the little 'These Discs Are CopyProtected' logo on the box), render some newer retail discs unplayable on some players, or else they stick or stutter or temporarily freeze up..... Can Blu-Ray be far behind? No, not with Sony's track record, they won't.

And it's all the *other* s----t about Blu-Ray that bugs me too, Ryu77. Since I don't yet own a blu-ray player and cannot speak from experience, maybe I should just shut my mouth until I get one.

But I will not tolerate things like being *required* to have a mandatory internet hookup to get "permission" to play an 'authorized' disc (remember the old, original Circuit-City DivX system?), nor do I intend to "register" my disc purchases on anyone's 'official' website, nor do I intend to have my viewing habits monitored by *anyone* at Sony or anywhere else.

I have NO use for disc-based, active links to web-sites offering "extras" like stupid goodamned movie-themed GAMES (which by the way, you pay for when you buy your discs, whether you ever use them or not), and the list just goes on and on.

No my friend - I don't like Sony's DRM *AT ALL*. If you're not careful and let it go unchecked, that (supposedly benign) cancerous blu-ray tumour you just found on your new disc, will become maglignant and spread to the rest of your disc collection.

Don't say I didn't try to warns ya. :-)

-- Paranoid Klingy --

1.3.2008 08:24 #59

Ryu77

Klingy, A very well worded post and I can see you're quite passionate about your thoughts too. I admire that.

In regards to the third type of person... A "Realist". I believe that either an Optimist or a Pessimist can also be part of the Realist group. That is more about perspective. An Optimist can see something bad is about to happen and choose not to be involved in any way. A Pessimist on the other hand also sees it's about to happen and thinks "Awesome, now I have a chance to complain". I believe I am a Realist, and on that note has any of the above DRM related statements actually happened to anyone?

I think we might have to agree to disagree... My opinion is as long as I can enjoy Blu-ray without any of the DRM catastrophes actually becoming a reality, then I am happy to continue to enjoy my 1080p HD movies... While the others do not.

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

1.3.2008 09:35 #60

jove

wow, people are quite passionate about making illegal copies of dvds and incredibly eager to buy them from other countries. there also mad about the fact that blu rays seem to only play in blu ray players... thats why dvd is so great cuz you can steal movies in the format making it cheaper for us consumers since our movies doesnt have to go to the companie, their cheaper since theyve been around longer and we can play them every where since u dont really need a dvd player to play a dvd. and we all know that we tend to buy our dvds anywhere outside the country and all that.

thats why blu ray will fail i tell you! jeez i guess now that hd dvd will about to be defunct, this is an argument we will have to live with for the next 40 years!!! lord save us all, the end is coming i tell you!!!! its all conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1.3.2008 11:00 #61

wrowe

Originally posted by jove: wow, people are quite passionate about making illegal copies of dvds and incredibly eager to buy them from other countries. there also mad about the fact that blu rays seem to only play in blu ray players... thats why dvd is so great cuz you can steal movies in the format making it cheaper for us consumers since our movies doesnt have to go to the companie, their cheaper since theyve been around longer and we can play them every where since u dont really need a dvd player to play a dvd. and we all know that we tend to buy our dvds anywhere outside the country and all that.

thats why blu ray will fail i tell you! jeez i guess now that hd dvd will about to be defunct, this is an argument we will have to live with for the next 40 years!!! lord save us all, the end is coming i tell you!!!! its all conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!40 years from now I doubt that anyone will even remember what HDDVD or BluRay were.

1.3.2008 11:08 #62

jove

*******since our money**********

1.3.2008 11:08 #63

gerbs

Kling-on, You are about 100% Right on.
Now for myself, Ive made over sixty trips around the sun and much of my optimism has been stripped away, the worst being the last 7 years of Texan Rule. We are not consumers on a level playing field, politicians are bought out by big money so they will serve them-the few, not us the many. Texas has been one of the pioneer states in this type of government and why the good people of the state keep bending over is beyond me. Texas style optimism took this country right to Iraq. Now you who say this has nothing to do with DRM I say that if you can show me how this is not related to politics I will shut up.

About Sony: I once sought out their products. They were a great company with great products. The day they took over my computer because I copied a CD to play in my car I said never again. Now I am told to just wait and see what they do with this new product. Oh yes I am ever so optimistic!
Love you all, and peace--

1.3.2008 13:44 #64

domie

Originally posted by A_Klingon: Blu-Ray with all of it's yummy DRM is WITH us whether we like it or not. Don't buy it if you don't want to, but as it is now THE dominant #1 optical disc format, you DO have to live with that! ?)silly me and here was I thinking that DVD was the dominant optical disc format :P ( just rib-pulling and nit picking , live long and prosper ;)

1.3.2008 16:19 #65

YOBUZZB

Originally posted by gerbs: Hey, little dude from Texas, home of the rabid capitalist that expect the many to make the few rich. You just don't understand it because your perspective is distorted by propaganda and american style brainwashing. DRM laws are there to assure the transfer of wealth from the many to the few. Sorry little dude, I will keep on poachin' from you royal bastards who have the money to buy the politicians who make the corporate laws you love so much!WOW!! You obviously have no understanding of the American mind-set where politicians or the corporate few you refer to are concerned. I think you're the one believing propaganda and are brainwashed. Are you kidding? Because I'm American I've got money to simply throw away. Guess again my Aussie friend! And frankly, I could give a dingo's butt as to why DRM's are imposed......I DON'T LIKE IT!!! Oh, and by the way...haven't you heard? Nothing "little" ever came from Texas!(~:

"In all your getting, get an understanding!"

Dell Dimension DIM4600 Intel P4 CPU 2.66GHz 512MB-DDR 160GB-HDD Primary 80GB-HDD Slave Memorex 16x DL -/+RW Burner JLMS DVD-ROM XJ-HD166 WinXP Home Edition SP2

1.3.2008 17:01 #66

Fiji5555

Oh, and by the way...haven't you heard? Nothing "little" ever came from Texas!(~:God help us all, you are so correct. The last 7 years have taught us that our present woes are due to Texas' BIG export......Mr Shrubbery.

1.3.2008 19:08 #67

Ryu77

Hey guys, come on now...

Let's not turn this into a World War... lol. It's really not nice to start trying to prove which Country or State is better than the other. Every person, no matter where they're from has their strengths and weaknesses. We can all be friends here. We should be mature enough to share our views without getting into an argument. Let's get back to topic. :-D

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

1.3.2008 19:30 #68

retepa

Great discussions. What kind of "TV" would you recommend to best view the BLUE RAY?

1.3.2008 20:11 #69

Ryu77

Originally posted by retepa: Great discussions. What kind of "TV" would you recommend to best view the BLUE RAY?Your question is too open. It will likely result in too many opinions that will differ so greatly that you will be more confused than you were when you started... :-P

I would recommend looking through some of the threads here... http://forums.afterdawn.com/forum_view.cfm/107

Also, you should do a little research on your own. Go into some shops, have a look around and see what appeals to you. Google some of the models you are interested in to get more information and reviews.

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

1.3.2008 20:25 #70

retepa

Plasma/LCD/Rear projection ...etc.
Which, viewing device, will best show the Blue Ray disc in all its glory?
When you go into stores the sales people differ on choice. My only explanation for this
is stores instruct their sales people to "plug" certain products.
Think personal, consumer, opinions are more valuable.

1.3.2008 21:20 #71

A_Klingon

Thanks for all the feedback, guys, both pro and con.

Up until now I couldn't even consider buying a Blu Ray player (or HD-DVD one for that matter) while the format war was still raging (which alone should tell you volumes about corporate greed) - and I'm not still convinced that getting one is the wisest thing to do while Sony's final blu-ray specifications are still (apparently?) in a bit of ongoing flux. I think it is a bit premature to buy (inve$t-long-term) into any new system who's basic, underlying specifications haven't been completely set in stone yet. And with the Sony-vs-Toshiba debacle, it's been one wild-&-whacky 'race to the finish line'.

But at least - with the current 'war' behind us, it's makes the decision to get a blu ray player a lot more sensible. (Of *course* I'm going to get one!) If I seem overly negative, maybe it's because I've seen so much crap foisted on us before, and I want to make it clear to Sony to avoid making these same mistakes in the future. I have very high hopes for Blu-Ray indeed, for myself all consumers alike.

I don't inherently dislike Sony (god only knows how much time I've spent in their retail stores ["The Sony Store"] and how many $$$$ I have spent on their (somewhat pricey) equipment over the years, but I'd hate to see them repeat the same mistakes that have been made over the years with regular DVD. (Which would take about another 500 posts to explain here!!) :-)

And don't forget, it's the 'Squeaky wheel that gets the grease'. If you don't make your concerns known, well......, maybe you will deserve all that you get.

Time to hunker down now and do some research on Profile 2.0 players.

-- Klingy --

2.3.2008 07:59 #72

gerbs

Thanks for your work and help--it's good for all of us to have this discussion!

2.3.2008 15:31 #73

A_Klingon

"Ah gots the Blues, Bay-Bay..."

Oh man, DEJA VU! Here we go again. "The Early-Adopter-Blues". Been there, done that, seen the movie already.

Just one quick example - the Sony BDP-S300:

It's friggin' ridiculous - this time coupled with more, unspecified, vague, potentially infuriating DRM. (I did warn you, but then most of you knew about it anyway). Says the Canadian Sony website:

Certain circumstances may limit/prevent Blu-ray Disc, CD or DVD Playback.

Well, if I can't get any more specific information than that, I won't be buying this model. And anyway, don't ALL Sony-licensed machines (regardless of brand name/manufacturer) need to adhere to the same DRM crap?

More woes - the USA Walmart price is $369.54. (I could live with that). Here in Canada, if I wanna trot down to the local Sony Retailer, they'll ORDER the player for me for $499.99. No they won't sell it to me. (It really is still way too early for this blu-ray stuff.)

$130.45 difference in the price. Same machine. (Minus shipping). Last time I checked, our Canadian Dollar was worth $1.02 US. What gives? We're being gouged again. And I still have yet to get a 1080p monitor/tv. Could get pricey.

There are NO blu-ray titles at my local walmart. On the USA Walmart website there are a few, but damned little that interested me, and most of which I've already seen multiple-multiple times.

"Same old Same old", as they say. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Methinks I'm going to wait to see shelf-fulls of blu-ray discs AND players before I budge this time.

gerbs, have you taken the plunge yet? Ryu77, what player are you using?

[Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...] :-)

3.3.2008 10:10 #74

eatsushi

A_Klingon:

A word of advice: Forget about the Sony standalones.

I recently got a Panasonic DMP-BD30 and it has played everything I've thrown at it (except of course for HD DVD's). There's at least a couple of other users here who will swear by their Panny's.

If you really need a 2.0 then wait for the DMP-BD50. It's got practically everything that the upcoming Sony S550 has.

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/630898

PanasonicDMP-BD50
Firmware � Street Date TBA
Video Decoder � Panasonic Uniphier
24fps - Yes
Audio Decoding
Dolby Digital - Onboard
DTS - Onboard
Dolby Digital Plus - Onboard/Bitstream
DTS � HR - Onboard/Bitstream
PCM - Onboard
Dolby True HD � Onboard/Bitstream
DTS HD Master Audio � Onboard/Bitstream
Analog Out Channels � 5.1
HDMI Channels � 7.1
HDMI Version - 1.3
Profile - 2.0
Ethernet - Yes

Sony BDP-S550
Firmware � Street Date Fall 2008
Video Decoder � Sigma SMP8634 Rev C
24fps - Yes
Audio Decoding
Dolby Digital - Onboard
DTS - Onboard
Dolby Digital Plus - Onboard/Bitstream
DTS � HR - Onboard/Bitstream
PCM - Onboard
Dolby True HD � Onboard/Bitstream
DTS HD Master Audio - Onboard/Bitstream
Analog Out Channels � 7.1
HDMI Channels � 7.1
HDMI Version � 1.3
Profile � 2.0
Ethernet - Yes

3.3.2008 11:06 #75

A_Klingon

Thanks for that info, eatsushi!

I've always had good luck with any of the Panasonic equipment I've owned in the past.

Quote:If you really need a 2.0.....I don't need anything that Sony tells me I 'need' anymore, (in fact I don't need blu-ray, period; Sony's credibility has taken a shot to the solar plexis), but IF Blu-Ray does take over the Hi-Def optical disc market, I suspect we're all going to need Profile 2.0. and profile 2.01, and profile 2.10a beta, ......[bla-bla-bla]... and various other firmware updates/upgrades from here to eternity just to remain current-enough to ensure we'll be able to play the next $35 disc we buy.

I'll see if I can't find a .pdf file of the Panasonic DMP-BD30's owner's manual, and I'll check-out that thread you linked to.

Thanks again! :)

3.3.2008 15:54 #76

gerbs

Hello Kling-on,
The dust will be long settled before I buy BlueRay, disc or machine. My guess is that it will not be Sony. The economy is headed for the dumps and most people will not be in a financial position to start dumping money for unproven, hyped-up products so development is going to be slowed down. For now I am very content to keep upscaling to a 42" LCD. No, I am not a Ludite there is just too much baggage to bite now. Up grading to BluRay also means new burners, getting a high def video camera, lots of new software, etc. etc. Good luck to the rich kids down in the oil fields, have fun keeping the rest of us afloat! Love, Peace and Fun to all!

3.3.2008 17:17 #77

A_Klingon

Quote:For now I am very content to keep upscaling to a 42" LCD.I see nothing wrong with that approach at all!, gerbs.

Myself right now, I'm LEARNING (_researching_, not buying.)

Quote:...there is just too much baggage to bite now.Agreed. Baggage galore is all over Bu-Ray, and what a consumer has to know in order to make an intelligent Blu-Ray choice, is shameful. Sony does NOT make this easy. DVD was never this hard. See my note below to eatsushi.

@eatsushi :

I have a much better understanding of the Blu-Ray Profiles now, ie :

Profile 1.0 - aka "Initial Standard Profile"
Profile 1.1 - aka "Final Standard Profile" (and/or) "Bonus View"
Profile 2.0 - aka "BD-Live"

As gerbs mentions above, this is a fair amount of baggage for the 'average' consumer to have to wade through. Life used to be simpler. The only reason I'm even looking at Blu-Ray now is because of HD-DVD's recent demise.

The discs are expensive, and the players, moreso.

I can't see why I wouldn't be completely happy with anything past Profile 1.1. My hi-def viewing "needs" are very simple. I want a _great_ HD picture on disc, it's that simple - something worthwhile to justify the added Blu Ray expense over what gerbs already does - upscaling SD DVD to 720p, or whatever level his player is capable of. This can be accomplished much more inexpensively than going Blu Ray.

I have no desire for Internet content, so I don't need BD-Live. (Profile 2.0)

The Panasonic DMP-BD30K Blu Ray Player is a _very_ handsome standalone, but at $500 US, it had better have more than just a pretty face. I love it's remote control. If I can get past my current DRM concerns, I'm seriously considering this player. But I have other, severe concerns about Blu Ray that have nothing to do with this player.

In the cNet review I read, the Panny has SUPERB video characteristics, much better than many competing products, and with SD (reg'lar) DVD, the most important video characteristics are all handled very well.

I don't know how important this Panny's lack of Ethernet jack, is.

As I say, I don't care about online content, but the lack of ethernet jack (seems) to preclude one's ability to obtain future firmware upgrades. Whatever happened to the concept of simply downloading an (official) firmware upgrade file, burning it to a standard CD, then upgrading that way? I have done that before with NO problems.

The sheer volume of available Blu Ray audio formats is just mind-boggling. There's just too many of them. My guess is 95% of Mass Joe Public will simply use Dolby Digital and let it go at that.

The little front panel SD card-slot is a nice idea, but I don't know how often I'd use it.

Right now, I think wading through the mountain of Blu Ray specs is a labour-of-love for those who can afford it, and are willing to spend the time learning it. As I say, Sony does not make choosing Blu Ray easy. (Sure, any idiot can just run out and a buy a player, then keep his fingers crossed for the best), but that is a Fool's Errand, I think.

And statements like the aforementioned "Certain circumstances may limit/prevent Blu-Ray Disc, CD or DVD Playback.", just turn my stomach.

A new "Best Buy" store just opened in our area. Since our local Walmarts (we have several) haven't got a Blu Ray in sight, I'll see if Best Buy carries this Panny (or anything else).

Thank you for all your help, eatsushi. -- Klingy --

3.3.2008 19:21 #78

Ryu77

Klingy, here's my experience to aid your research.

My Blu-ray player is my PS3. As you've probably heard, it is one of the most fully equipped Blu-ray players on the market and at about the same price as most stand alones... The choice was obvious for me as I am a gamer also.

I also have a Samsung HD870 up-convert DVD player (720p or 1080i). Which gives a fantastic picture. Samsung have made some very good quality up-convert DVD players. Here's a couple links to my Samsung player...

From Samsung Website Hong Kong: http://www.samsung.com/he/products/dvdpl...s/dvd_hd870.asp

Review from Dooyoo: http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/dvd-player/samsung-dvd-hd870/1052066/

My comparison between Blu-ray (PS3) and up-convert DVD player (Samsung HD870)...

Note: Both my players are connected via HDMI and both are set to the same picture settings on the TV (Colour, Contrast, etc.). My TV is a Sharp Aquos 46" 1080p LCD.

My intital thoughts were that Blu-ray on the PS3 was no better than the picture quality from my HD870. However, as I later found out this was from a poor choice of Blu-ray movie titles to cast a first impression from. After watching a few more titles I could see there was quite a substantial difference to be seen. What I did was compare the SD titles directly against the HD (Blu-ray) titles on my PS3. I freezed many frames and did a thorough analysis. I could easily see the difference in detail. In the Blu-ray version I could see much more detail and texture. For example there was a scene where the character was shown up close in a car. In the Blu-ray version I could see all the details of his hand on the steering wheel. I could see all the lines, wrinkles, hairs (lol) etc. In the SD version I could see some detail but there was noise surrounding the high texture areas.

Remember, Blu-ray isn't just about picture quality. Don't forget the sound. The included audio (main track) is identical to the studio original. I have heard from others that the uncompressed (5.1 PCM) or lossless audio (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD) is mind blowing. I am yet to experience it as I don't have a HDMI v1.3 AV receiver yet. I intend to upgrade in the future but finding $2000+ to replace my 6 month old $800 receiver just doesn't make sense at this point (for some crazy reason my receiver also lacks analog 5.1, so I can't do it that way either).

I hope this helps. :-D

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

3.3.2008 19:50 #79

A_Klingon

Hi RYU !!!! :-)

Just shaved & took a shower; it's 10:00 PM; heading out to work in a hurry; (I work till 8:00 AM tomorrow); have printed out your post; will read @ work; gotta RUN; will reply tommorrow ASAP; much obliged; keep the faith; luv thy neighbour; and I'll catch ye on the fly!! :-)

[pant, pant......] Whooooooooooooooooooooooooosh !!!!!

3.3.2008 20:53 #80

dblbogey7

Originally posted by eatsushi: A word of advice: Forget about the Sony standalones.

I recently got a Panasonic DMP-BD30 and it has played everything I've thrown at it (except of course for HD DVD's). There's at least a couple of other users here who will swear by their Panny's.+1 on the Panasonic recommendation.

I have the Profile 1.0 DMP-BD10 and it's been a solid and trouble-free performer for me. It handles most everything including scratched and smudged Netflix rentals, plus Profile 1.1 and 2.0 discs (main movie of course).

I'm due for a player upgrade this year and my preferences are the following - in no particular order:

Panasonic DMP-BD50
Marantz BD8002
Denon DVD-3800BD

Like eatsushi said - forget the Sony's.

4.3.2008 00:10 #81

Ryu77

Originally posted by A_Klingon: I suspect we're all going to need Profile 2.0. and profile 2.01, and profile 2.10a beta, ......[bla-bla-bla]... and various other firmware updates/upgrades from here to eternity just to remain current-enough to ensure we'll be able to play the next $35 disc we buy.To me it looks like profile 2.0 is a final spec. From what I understand there are 3 profiles and that is all there will be. Profile 1.0, Profile 1.1 (Bonus View) and Profile 2.0 (BD Live). Juankerr has made a fantastic post explaining the Blu-ray profiles on eatsushi's "An Updated Master List Of Players" thread. Here's a link to juankerr's post...

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/630898/3829811

"A winner sees an answer for every problem... A loser sees a problem with every answer"

4.3.2008 03:11 #82

A_Klingon

Hi again, Ryu77.

Thanks for the picture-quality evaluations from your PS3 and Samsung HD870 machines! Subjective reviews always have more value to me than published specs. I am *certain* I'm going to be enjoying Blu Ray's overall quality regardless of which machine I wind up purchasing.

I can see there is much much I have to consider before buying. It's becoming a bit more obvious(-ish) to me after reading a few cNet reviews, that I may have to wait for the Profile 2.0 machines to arrive in greater quantity before I make a decision because it (seems) they're the only ones (???) which have the Ethernet port for future firmware upgrades. I'm not sure if that's true. Profile 2.0 only seems to require an "Internet" connection. I don't know if an Ethernet port and 'Internet Connection' mean one-in-the-same thing.

I swore I would never buy a machine that required a mandatory internet connection, but how else can one get future upgrades? As I mentioned in an above post, I am used to upgrading via a firmware upgrade file burned to a cd-r disc, (which wouldn't require the ethernet port.) This method has always worked famously for me.

BEST BUY (Canada) currently has 3 Blu Ray machines on offer:

SHARP BD-HP20U - $550 - Bad(ish) cNet Review
SAMSUNG BD-P1400 - $500 - Bad(ish) cNet Review
SONY BDP-S300 - $500 - (Didn't check cNet)

These are the Canadian BEST BUY prices. In general, the USA BEST BUY prices average about $100-$150 lower for the same machine(s). (Bloody ridiculous! - The Canadian dollar is worth more than the American dollar right now.) None of these players are Profile 2.0.

I _think_ it might be premature to choose a Profile 1.1 machine, then wish I had waited a bit longer for the 2.0 units to arrive in greater quantity.

So....... still looking, still waiting, still reading.... !!

- Klingy -

4.3.2008 08:00 #83

A_Klingon

Thnx for replying, dblbogey7!

Quote:Like eatsushi said - forget the Sony's.Well, (I'll keep an eye on them of course), but their player's don't hold nearly the same interest for me that they once did. And don't forget, regardless of which actual brand name you choose, it's got SONY technology written all over it anyway.

One of your mentioned preferences holds my interest too, especially as it would be my first blu-ray player - the Panasonic DMP-BD50 Profile 2.0 machine. cNet has yet to publish a review on that one.

-- Mike --

4.3.2008 08:08 #84

dblbogey7

Originally posted by A_Klingon: I swore I would never buy a machine that required a mandatory internet connection, but how else can one get future upgrades? As I mentioned in an above post, I am used to upgrading via a firmware upgrade file burned to a burned cd-r disc, (which wouldn't require the ethernet port.)You don't need an ethernet port to update the firmware on BluRay players. How do you think we've been updating our 1.0 machines? The makers make the firmware update ISO's available online and you can download and burn them to CD-R's.

Even if you have a 2.0 machine you don't have to have it connected to the internet at all if you don't want to. It's NOT MANDATORY especially if you're not interested in web-based extras.

4.3.2008 08:09 #85

A_Klingon

Quote:The makers make the firmware update ISO's available online and you can download and burn them to CD-R's. * PERFECT * !!!!! :-)

Quote:Even if you have a 2.0 machine you don't have to have it connected to the internet at all if you don't want to. It's NOT MANDATORY especially if you're not interested in web-based extras.* PERFECT * (Multiplied by 2X) !!! :-)

Wow! Things are beginning to look UP!

That would suggest a Profle 1.1 (or even 1.0) player would be all I need. Disc playback is all I'm concerned about.

I've been fishing through the Blu-Ray FAQ's, dblbogey7 - it's gonna take a while.

4.3.2008 08:22 #86

juankerr

Originally posted by A_Klingon: regardless of which actual brand name you choose, it's got SONY technology written all over it anyway.Actually the Panasonic players have very little Sony in it - if any. The BD30 and BD50 have the proprietary "UniPhier" video decoding chip developed by Panasonic themselves and also used by the Denon and Marantz high-end models. It's also known that Matsushita/Panasonic make their own drives and even supply their burners for Sony's PC's and laptops.

BTW I also have the Panasonic DMP-BD30 and I'm very impressed with this machine.

4.3.2008 08:29 #87

A_Klingon

Quote:Actually the Panasonic players have very little Sony in it - if any.Semantics, juankerr, semantics.

If you had no Sony, you'd have no blu-ray. If you had no blu-ray, then you'd have no Panasonic DMP-BD30s/50s.

Ergo, you have Sony - like it or not. (Just with a healthy dose of Panasonic thrown in there!)

I've been reading nothing but praise for Panasonic's blu-ray machines. They remain high on my list.

4.3.2008 08:42 #88

dblbogey7

Originally posted by A_Klingon: Semantics, juankerr, semantics.I don't think it's a simple matter of semantics. Panasonic does own a significant chunk of the BluRay patent pool and contributed a lot to the IP:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=994913&page=2

Quote:These are the companies that have contributed IP to Blu-ray.

As for their relative importance in that list, I'll give the top five:

1. Panasonic
2. Samsung
3. Sony
4. Philips
5. Pioneer

4.3.2008 08:51 #89

juankerr

Exactly right dblbogey7. I was thinking of linking to that thread too.

Bottom line, Panasonic has the ability to design and build a BD player from the ground up without any help or influence from Sony. Based on my previous experience with their players, I'd put them on top of my list ahead of Sony's.

4.3.2008 09:01 #90

A_Klingon

Quote:I don't think it's a simple matter of semantics.Psssst...... hey juankerr, c'mere for a sec - let me whisper in your ear.....

..... I - Don't - Care ...... :)

I am fully aware that there are several mega-corps who have shared/pooled their various proprietary technologies with each other for years in the forging of the Blu-Ray standard we know today. I don't need to have their names spelled out, (but thank you anyway).

Sony's DRM is everywhere. In Panasonic's machines, in your breakfast cereal, in the air you breathe, in the movies you watch, in the kiss you gave your girlfriend yesterday. :)

I wish it wasn't so, but what-ya-gonna-do ??? [shrug]

4.3.2008 09:11 #91

A_Klingon

OOops!

Sorry juankerr and dblbogey7! My "Bad" - I got you two mixed up!

(Been a long night - just got off work; gotta hit the sack).

Peace - love. --Mike--

4.3.2008 09:19 #92

dblbogey7

Originally posted by juankerr: Bottom line, Panasonic has the ability to design and build a BD player from the ground up without any help or influence from Sony. Based on my previous experience with their players, I'd put them on top of my list ahead of Sony's.I agree with you there. In the standalone game I think Sony is just playing catch-up right now. The fact that high end makers Denon and Marantz have chosen Panny's UniPhier chip speaks a lot to their design abilities.

4.3.2008 09:33 #93

eatsushi

The other thing I found out about the Panasonic DMP-BD50 is that it will have the ability to play DivX and DivX HD files on disc. I may just eBay my BD30 and get this one when it comes out just for this feature.

http://www.blu-ray.com/players/players.php?id=17&show=specs

4.3.2008 10:48 #94

goodswipe

Originally posted by eatsushi: The other thing I found out about the Panasonic DMP-BD50 is that it will have the ability to play DivX and DivX HD files on disc. I may just eBay my BD30 and get this one when it comes out just for this feature.

" target="_blank">http://www.blu-ray.com/players/players.p...w=specs

Ok, that just sealed the deal for me! A new player that has support for DivX and DivX HD files, hot damn! I have been waiting for this to come along for some time now, I'm with you on this one eatsushi.

Update: I thought I had read somewhere that this player would have 7.1 analog outputs? Looks like it just has 5.1. MSRP of 599? Is this going to be a standard price you think?

"look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

4.3.2008 11:19 #95

borhan9

At least paramount is keeping by their word and this just goes to show you that their is still loyalty in the world that we live in today.

20.4.2008 17:29 #96

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