Sony not expecting $200 Blu-ray players before next year

Despite speculation by some that we may see a $200 Blu-ray player before year's end, no such product appears to be in sight. In fact, the Chinese companies responsible for the boom in low priced DVD players a few short years ago don't even seem to have a chance to be licensed by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA).

Sony Electronics CEO Stan Glasgow told Gizmodo "I don't think $200 is going to happen this year. Next year $200 could happen. We'll be at a $300 rate this year. $299 will happen this year." He apparently intimated that no Chinese manufacturer was even close to getting a license, which many have suggested is the key to low priced players of any type.

What Sony is apparently hoping to accomplish this year is establishing a presence in the video download market. Rival console maker Microsoft has been able to build a successful service with the Xbox Live store, which includes a number of SD and HD titles. Meanwhile Sony, owner of a great deal of their own content, has somehow failed to establish a similar marketplace for PS3 owners, despite the console being billed as a home entertainment device rather than simply a game console.

Written by: Rich Fiscus @ 6 Mar 2008 2:25

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84 comments

nobrainer

Well they don't have to bother being competitive now, as HD-DvD is dead as its only other manufacturers that sony have to price fix with to keep the machines artificially high and then convince studios to start to leave DVD in favour of the new & "better" format by releasing films on Drm-Ray only by stating "they need more storage space"!

The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.

The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.

The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!

The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.

How do you stop anti consumer = its easy purchase only second hand media and avoid their propertarian hobbled by DRM hardware! http://www.boycott-riaa.com/

6.3.2008 03:26 #1

Pop_Smith

And so it begins, the evil $ony corp. and its DBA associates are once again (at least for now) confirming they really don't want to take over DVD with their DRM-infection. They just want to make as much dough as possible.

Peace

6.3.2008 03:26 #2

nobrainer

Originally posted by Pop_Smith: And so it begins, the evil $ony corp. and its DBA associates are once again (at least for now) confirming they really don't want to take over DVD with their DRM-infection. They just want to make as much dough as possible.

PeaceSony would rather have Downloads straight to the Blu-Ray Hard drive via profile Drm-Ray 3.0> then they can have BD+ DRM control it and sony can sell you the licence and not the product and force all sorts of anti consumer crap on you just as they have started to do already with PSN releases of games.

You no longer own content you can use it, you are not allowed to sell it, give it away, lend it to a friend or even bundle it when you sell the unit the media is stored on! you are purchasing an empty bad!

for all the geeks and anyone interested in how our rights are being destroyed here is the EFF:

VIDEO: DefCon 15 - T411 - Ask the EFF Panel 1 hr 45 min - 11 Sep 2007
http://video.google.co.uk/url?docid=6443...xz-ElTUx9iTrEoA

6.3.2008 03:38 #3

hughjars

I hate to say 'I told you so' but..............

.......and I'd also hate to remind people that we'd end up being sorry about a Blu-ray 'win' too.

I think it's becoming clear that the BDA know they can never displace SD DVD in the mass-market, certainly not with Blu-ray as it stands.
It's too expensive and the benefits just are not worth it to the genuine mass-market.

That obviously then leaves the Blu-ray market as a high value high profit margin niche in which the studios and CE corps attempt to recoup some of the margins they have lost now that SD DVD is so cheap.

6.3.2008 06:33 #4

Ryu77

It may be true that Blu-ray will never reach the heights that regular DVD has... However, if it was the other way around and HD-DVD won the recent format war, there is no guarantee that they would have done so either.

6.3.2008 07:07 #5

juankerr

Hey wait a minute. I thought people were saying that prices for players were going to GO UP after Bluray won.

Maybe they quoted Glasgow wrong. He must have meant $3000 instead of $300 by this year and $2000 instead of $200 by next year.

I think Gizmodo missed that extra zero.

We should see the players down to $1000 by 2010.

[/sarcasm]

6.3.2008 07:29 #6

error5

So they prove people wrong by reducing prices after they win.

Now people complain that prices are not dropping fast enough.

It's getting tiresome.

Oh BTW my two HD DVD players were never this cheap. I bought my HD-A1 shortly after release in 2006 for $500. My HD-XA2 cost me $700. Well I guess that's the price I pay for being an early adopter.

6.3.2008 08:03 #7

Ryu77

Yes, juankerr.... Isn't it funny how it is the same couple people always putting Blu-ray down any way they can.

You, I and many, many other people can enjoy our 1080p Blu-ray media in all its stunning audio and visual glory while the certain few prefer to just sit there and complain about how bad it will be in the future...

The thing I am starting to wonder is when is that DRM doomsday supposed to actually happen? The future certainly looks bright from where I sit... On my comfy lounge, with my 46" 1080p LCD, Blu-ray player and 6.2 channel 1500w RMS sound system... Hold on I think I just saw a DRM bug crawl out of one of my subs... Where's the Bug spray?

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

6.3.2008 08:12 #8

SDF_GR

Originally posted by Ryu77: The thing I am starting to wonder is when is that DRM doomsday supposed to actually happen?Till some people can't afford to buy a PS3 or a Stand alone BD player or admit there loss (cause there ego)... till then that day will be "always coming" and sony will be the Antichrist's Company.

I made a little net-search cause a post that i saw here, and HD-DVD wasn't that copy free, HD-DVD used DRM, but i havent seen any from the HD-DVD fanboyz ever posting nothing about that.
Toshiba's/HD-DVD's DRM was different? or it was for a good cause?

Some people they like to be blind at will, but thats not the prob, they are stupid and i dont care (no one does really).
The prob is that they spread BS around and they take people down with them.

6.3.2008 08:51 #9

dblbogey7

What we're seeing are the highly unrealistic expectations fostered by Toshiba's sudden, precipitous (and eventually futile) price drops.

6.3.2008 08:59 #10

A_Klingon

Hmmmmm...... Ryu77, are you the gent with the Sharp Aquos 46" 1080p thingee?

If so, I came within a hair's breadth (one phone call away which didn't materialize) of buying your Sharp's littler 37" brother in the last 2 days. (back on topic...)

OK, so the news report here suggests that Sony is prioritizing it's efforts to establish a more robust video download presence. But it seems odd...

Video downloading, and purchasing factory-pressed blu-ray discs seem to be at odds with each other. They are very different things.

If Sony were interested enough (which I believe they are) in promoting their Blu-Ray Disc Format past "niche" status or even try to supplant current, worldwide standard DVD dominance, you'd think they would try to come up with a $200 player this year instead of next, rather than concentrate on video downloads.

If I were Sony, right now I'd be foaming-at-the-mouth to get Blu-Ray players (even from other manufacturers) into as many homes as possible, as fast as possible. God knows they'll make a mint off current blu-ray disc prices.

Right now, I don't think I can get a blu-ray player locally for under $600, (short of getting a PS3), which I have NO intention of paying.

So if a $200 player this year is dependant on Chinese-labour outsourcing...... so be it. (Isn't half their stuff made in China anyway?)

6.3.2008 08:59 #11

tripplite

A_Klingon` i ant seen you around since...well a long time!!!

this fanboy says: LONG LIVE HD-DVD!! W00T w00t w00t

6.3.2008 09:33 #12

Ryu77

Originally posted by A_Klingon: Hmmmmm...... Ryu77, are you the gent with the Sharp Aquos 46" 1080p thingee?Yes... lol! Here's a link to my set-up... http://i.my.afterdawn.com/original/16117.JPG

A_Klingon, why don't you have a profile? I'd like to add you to my buddy list. You seem like a positive & outgoing type of person. :-D

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

6.3.2008 09:37 #13

A_Klingon

Originally posted by tripplite: A_Klingon` i ant seen you around since...well a long time!!!
Peek-A-Boo, tripplite!!! (That's my little goblin-buddy, The Blu-Ray Meanie From Pepperland). :)

this fanboy says: LONG LIVE HD-DVD!! W00T w00t w00tAw geeze, tripplite, 'yer a tad LATE on that one!

(Still, if I can find a cheap, discontinued HD-DVD player, I'm gonna get one, just for it's upconverting ability.)

6.3.2008 09:52 #14

A_Klingon

Quote:A_Klingon, why don't you have a profile? I'd like to add you to my buddy list. You seem like a positive & outgoing type of person. :-DHOLEE - S........ (poop) ..... that's one PURDY set-up you have there, Ryu!

T'would be _quite_ a while before I could afford something *that* nice! (I live in a <small-ish> single-bedroom apartment - I'm just wondering where I'm gonna find the room to stash my new LCD monitor when I get one).

Isn't there a PS3 hiding in there somewhere??? <gg>

6.3.2008 10:00 #15

Ryu77

Originally posted by A_Klingon: HOLEE - S........ (poop) ..... that's one PURDY set-up you have there, Ryu!

T'would be _quite_ a while before I could afford something *that* nice! (I live in a <small-ish> single-bedroom apartment - I'm just wondering where I'm gonna find the room to stash my new LCD monitor when I get one).

Isn't there a PS3 hiding in there somewhere??? <gg>Couldn't you see it? It's at the bottom left... Below the PS2 and left of my AV receiver.

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

6.3.2008 10:06 #16

SProdigy

What this article states is that Sony is still trying to use the PS3 as the center of the living room. With one "universal" box, Sony can make MILLIONS of dollars off of PS games, Blu-Ray disc royalties and content downloads. They have the mentality that the PS3 is the second coming of the iPod, and that it will dominate entertainment on your television for years to come. However, their execution of such a plan has been incredibly sloppy, and their open arrogance over their technology has generated more heat from consumers rather than the adoration that is reserved for a company like Apple.

If you pause and think for a moment, Sony has no reason to let other companies join the BDA and produce players. They also have no reason to drop the price on Blu-Ray stand alone sets. Because the PS3 competes with DVD players, gaming consoles and networked media devices such as AppleTV, they need to force as many PS3 consoles into homes as possible. By keeping prices high, they not only increase profit margins, but it also creates a sense of value within the "moderately" priced PS3 console/BD player/network device.

Now that Sony no longer has to worry about competition from HD-DVD, they can breathe a sigh of relief that they will make royalties off of ANY game, movie or recordable media with a Blu-Ray stamp on it. They can pull the reigns back on the Blu-Ray campaign, and with the higher cost of owning HD content on BD, they will now try to take on the Xbox Live Marketplace and iTunes for control of downloadable content.

With Steve Jobs campaigning against DRM, Sony will try to smooth over companies by offering more control. That control also comes with the eerie feeling that Blu-Ray "phoning home" will give the content companies more statistics on their demographic, something that ALL of these companies would salivate over, while keeping DRM alive, and forcing the consumer to pay for the same content multiple times.

These are many of the reasons I feel that many of us have viewed Sony and it's brands as anti-consumer. Sony is using the wrong positions to leverage their business, and this announcement over downloadable content is just another example of that.

6.3.2008 10:14 #17

eatsushi

That's a good setup Ryu. I hope you don't mind some advice though.

I see you have your center channel on the same rack as your players and amp. You're getting a good amount of vibration from the speaker getting to your audio equipment there.

If you haven't already done so I would advise using isolation feet for either your center speaker or your equipment or even both. I've used the vibrapods and they're very good:

http://www.vibrapod.com/

There are other makers out there so just google audio isolation feet. Heck I've seen some guys cut a tennis ball in half and use those.

6.3.2008 10:17 #18

SProdigy

Quote:Originally posted by A_Klingon: HOLEE - S........ (poop) ..... that's one PURDY set-up you have there, Ryu!

T'would be _quite_ a while before I could afford something *that* nice! (I live in a <small-ish> single-bedroom apartment - I'm just wondering where I'm gonna find the room to stash my new LCD monitor when I get one).

Isn't there a PS3 hiding in there somewhere??? <gg>Couldn't you see it? It's at the bottom left... Below the PS2 and left of my AV receiver.WOW... nice setup. Looks like Sony's plan for World Domination begins at your place! ;-)

6.3.2008 10:17 #19

A_Klingon

Quote:[Isn't there a PS3 hiding in there somewhere??? <gg>]

Couldn't you see it?(Well.....), I've never been a games fan; truth is; I wouldn't know a PS3 if it came up and bit me!

I think some time later today, I might look around for some PS3 info. I hate the idea of paying extra for gaming ability which I'll never use & all the associated circuitry that goes along with that, but with today's current Bl-Ray player prices..........

(Or maybe I'll just wait). Haven't decided yet! :-)

6.3.2008 10:23 #20

Hunt720

People don't seem suprised by the fact that they won't be able to purchase a BD player for the same price as thier dead-format playing DVD upconverters that previously supported a format with its OWN DRM.

Maybe Toshiba has learned that you shouldn't join a studio-bribing contest if you can't outbribe your competitor. Its a sad fact that both formats weren't only considered for their tech specs, but had to financially persuede studios. Both sides need to remember that EACH SIDE DID THIS.

SO in stead of regurgetating the same whiney and pointless "DRM.. whahhh DRM.. WAHHHHHH" BS, why doesn't this community focus on beating this oppressive encryption and learning how to use the data we pay for in our own way. If anyone can beat this its the community here.

.... and when was the last time you rented an HD download from Xbox live and had access to do what you wanted to that? ... Hypocracy.

6.3.2008 10:30 #21

A_Klingon

Quote:WOW... nice setup. Looks like Sony's plan for World Domination begins at your place! ;-)Sony would have to check with microsoft first. Gates is still working on that one. :)

6.3.2008 10:34 #22

A_Klingon

Quote:That control also comes with the eerie feeling that Blu-Ray "phoning home" will give the content companies more statistics on their demographic, something that ALL of these companies would salivate over, while keeping DRM alive, and forcing the consumer to pay for the same content multiple times. Far from being farfetched, I think you are Bang-On-Absolutly-Correct about this, SProdigy.

And it's precisely *why* I will never hook my (likely-forthcoming) blu-ray player into the internet. I couldn't _care-less_ what content I might miss by failing to do so.

6.3.2008 10:50 #23

A_Klingon

Quote:... why doesn't this community focus on beating this oppressive encryption and learning how to use the data we pay for in our own way. If anyone can beat this its the community here.
It's being worked on, on a daily basis - of that I am certain. CloneDVD and DVDHDFab come to mind, plus who knows who-all-else?

BD+ has gotta go, or be rendered *defeated*. That's all there is to it.

6.3.2008 10:57 #24

Ryu77

Originally posted by eatsushi: That's a good setup Ryu. I hope you don't mind some advice though.

I see you have your center channel on the same rack as your players and amp. You're getting a good amount of vibration from the speaker getting to your audio equipment there.

If you haven't already done so I would advise using isolation feet for either your center speaker or your equipment or even both. I've used the vibrapods and they're very good:

http://www.vibrapod.com/

There are other makers out there so just google audio isolation feet. Heck I've seen some guys cut a tennis ball in half and use those.I always welcome advice! :-D

Actually my center speaker is on a shelf all on it's own (apart from a little iPod dock which rarely gets used). My entertainment unit has 3 tiers (4 shelves). It might be hard to tell from that picture as it's all black... Or did you mean sitting on the same entertainment unit? I really can't think of any other way to position it so that the center speaker is where it is supposed to be in a 5.1 (or 6.2 in my case) configuration. Is this ok? Or did you know of a better way?

Yes, I do have isolation feet on the bottom of the center speaker. Well, not the classy vibrapod kind that you posted. I have rubber squares on the bottom to absorb vibration, noise transfer etc.

I find that I get good high clarity sound with no perceivable vibration, apart from my entire house shaking when the dual subs are given an opportunity to have their say. :-P Do you feel that there is anything else I could do to improve this set-up?

Thank you for your advice. Do you work in Home Theater? I can tell from your posts that you know what you're talking about here.

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

6.3.2008 11:08 #25

Ryu77

Originally posted by SProdigy: WOW... nice setup. Looks like Sony's plan for World Domination begins at your place! ;-)LOL! Come on... It's not all Sony... There's some Sharp & Samsung thrown into the mix! :-P

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

6.3.2008 11:18 #26

goodswipe

Quote:made a little net-search cause a post that i saw here, and HD-DVD wasn't that copy free, HD-DVD used DRM, but i havent seen any from the HD-DVD fanboyz ever posting nothing about that.
Toshiba's/HD-DVD's DRM was different? or it was for a good cause?
HD DVD used Advanced Access Content System (AACS) for protection. Blu-ray uses the same level of security, but they thought they would step it up a level with BD+ - HD DVD doesn't use this. Below is a little tid bit of what BD+ can actually do.

- examine the host environment, to see if the player has been tampered with. Every licensed playback device manufacturer must provide the BD+ licensing authority with memory footprints that identify their devices.
- verify that the player's keys have not been changed. execute native code, possibly to patch an otherwise insecure system.
- transform the audio and video output. Parts of the content will not be viewable without letting the BD+-program unscramble it.

This is what all the fuss is about my friend.

6.3.2008 11:49 #27

c1c

Now that Sony owns the HD market they will not lower any prices on Bluray. All the money they lost with the ps3 has to made up somewhere. But I can't wait until that company comes out with a Bluray/Divx machine at Walmart.

6.3.2008 11:54 #28

goodswipe

Hey A_Klingon, one question for you bud. Do you sit around and drink Monsters all day or what? You're one chippy guy I must say!!

6.3.2008 11:54 #29

nobrainer

Oh No here comes SONY!

@ goodswipe

as an edition BD+ scans for any multi region hacks and disables the drive if a hack is found!
God bless global price fixing thank you sony!

*click* Lik-Sang.com Out of Business due to Multiple Sony Lawsuits

Originally posted by sony tool: "ultimately, we're trying to protect consumers from being sold hardware that does not conform to strict EU or UK consumer safety standards, due to voltage supply differences et cetera; is not - in PS3's case - backwards compatible with either PS1 or PS2 software; will not play European Blu-Ray movies or DVDs; and will not be covered by warranty".oh they was protecting us by not letting us import PS3's at UK launch for �300 delivered to your door!

6.3.2008 11:55 #30

goodswipe

Originally posted by c1c: Now that Sony owns the HD market they will not lower any prices on Bluray. All the money they lost with the ps3 has to made up somewhere. But I can't wait until that company comes out with a Bluray/Divx machine at Walmart.Panasonic is suppose to be comming out with a BD player that has DivX support. The DMP-BD50 is suppose to be DivX certified.

Man, lmao @ that nobrainer! Hey did you make those anti-DRM images yourself? lol

"look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

6.3.2008 11:57 #31

hughjars

Just a few points.....

1st - what's so weird or paranoid about people suspecting that Blu-ray may end up incorporating a 'phone home' form of 'security'?

The Sony root kits did.

2nd - why shouldn't people moan about the lack of a proper range of supposedly final spec Blu-ray players (although I note that profile 2.1 & 3.0 are in the works)?
They are only 3 years late (and counting) in catching up with where HD DVD was all along.

3rd - Why shouldn't people point out the obvious cynacism at work on Blu-ray pricing?
Now HD DVD has retired from the field both Blu-ray player & movie prices are up (straight after the Warner announcement Sony put a cool $100 on the cost of their S300 on their own website, for instance).

4th - Why should anyone interested in high def have to buy a bl*ody PS3?
Talk about energy inefficient and a waste of money.
There's simply no good reason (other than sheer greed) why a BD stand-alone with the playback abilities of the PS3 without all the gaming BS many of us neither want nor need has never appeared.

6.3.2008 12:14 #32

ZippyDSM

The game is rigged but even they can not prop up high prices for too long.

I don't see BR+ players falling under 200 for at least 8 months, PC BR players are under 200 and some BR players are under 280 as well as used BR players can hit below 250.

All in all its a process.

6.3.2008 12:16 #33

nobrainer

@ hughjars

the phone home ability has already been confirmed by FOX i'll have to find the link, but it was played down as they are just collecting statistical data but not any personal data, which i suppose means everything except ip address but is that considered private data, i don't think so?

6.3.2008 14:42 #34

juankerr

Originally posted by nobrainer: the phone home ability has already been confirmed by FOX i'll have to find the link, but it was played down as they are just collecting statistical data but not any personal data, which i suppose means everything except ip address but is that considered private data, i don't think so?So when I registered for the web-enabled features of my Transformers HD DVD I shouldn't have given Paramount any of my data?

Or maybe I shouldn't have downloaded those ringtones using the web-enabled extras on my 300 HD DVD?

Maybe I shouldn't have ordered that solar powered radio from the Evan Almighty HD DVD U-Shop.

Now Paramount, Warner, and Universal have all my data. Geezus!

6.3.2008 14:55 #35

eatsushi

@juankerr: You're in a cynical mood today.

Quote:Maybe I shouldn't have ordered that solar powered radio from the Evan Almighty HD DVD U-Shop.
I was tempted to get the recycled toilet paper as a gag gift but decided against it. I did download that 300 ringtone though.

Does that mean Warner has my personal data too?

6.3.2008 15:34 #36

Ryu77

nobrainer, is that a pic from your local bar? Which one is you?

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

6.3.2008 15:50 #37

tripplite

Quote:nobrainer, is that a pic from your local bar? Which one is you?OUCH! that hit a sting for sure!
=======================================

sony had to spend a lot of money to defeat Microsoft, they had to spend even more money paying producers to sell they're movies in blu ray even though it would be a lose of money as most sales are still above 90% dvd, very little blu ray interest from the consumer at the moment,

at any rate now that sony won the battle they must lick clean their wounds, they must make up for failed promises and a H U G E lose of profit! its only natural that the main way they gather money (the blu ray players) will be abused!

"no war is paid for during its time, but after"
the quote went something like that, it was by an ancient greek er roman...or some important smuck!

-tripplite

6.3.2008 15:59 #38

SProdigy

Originally posted by juankerr: Originally posted by nobrainer: the phone home ability has already been confirmed by FOX i'll have to find the link, but it was played down as they are just collecting statistical data but not any personal data, which i suppose means everything except ip address but is that considered private data, i don't think so?So when I registered for the web-enabled features of my Transformers HD DVD I shouldn't have given Paramount any of my data?

Or maybe I shouldn't have downloaded those ringtones using the web-enabled extras on my 300 HD DVD?

Maybe I shouldn't have ordered that solar powered radio from the Evan Almighty HD DVD U-Shop.

Now Paramount, Warner, and Universal have all my data. Geezus!LOL... I doubt those studios care about your use of HD-DVD now!

I was just picturing Blu-Ray coming with a "Genuine Authenticity" menu when it loads... you know, like Windows :-)

6.3.2008 16:30 #39

eatsushi

Originally posted by SProdigy: LOL... I doubt those studios care about your use of HD-DVD now!You mean I can't order the recycled toilet paper from Evan Almighty anymore?

Anyway, I'm sure he was being sarcastic.

6.3.2008 16:39 #40

juankerr

Originally posted by eatsushi: You mean I can't order the recycled toilet paper from Evan Almighty anymore?Last time I checked about a month ago the U-Shop was still online. Hopefully you can still order your TP.

Come to think of it I wonder how long the web-enabled features on the HD DVD discs will remain online.

6.3.2008 17:07 #41

A_Klingon

Quote:Hey A_Klingon, one question for you bud. Do you sit around and drink Monsters all day or what? You're one chippy guy I must say!!Aw, gorsh! [blush]

I try, goodswipe, I try; tain't always easy; there's a lot of misery out there, and I figure people are probably tired of all the bitchin', whinin' and moanin' going on <especially my rants>, (not that they haven't got a good reason to a lot of the time), it's just that I hate to see good people get "Taken In" by Perennially-Greedy Big Bizz.

...kissing up to the admins ... Other than that, AfterDawn folks are the BEST anyway! (Couldn't you tell?)

6.3.2008 17:11 #42

goodswipe

Quote:Last time I checked about a month ago the U-Shop was still online. Hopefully you can still order your TP.

I am Cornholio! I need TP for my bunghole!

"look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

6.3.2008 17:13 #43

juankerr

Originally posted by goodswipe: Quote:Last time I checked about a month ago the U-Shop was still online. Hopefully you can still order your TP.

I am Cornholio! I need TP for my bunghole!

LOL! One of the classic moments in American film history!

When is this coming out in HD????

6.3.2008 17:24 #44

A_Klingon

Quote:1st - what's so weird or paranoid about people suspecting that Blu-ray may end up incorporating a 'phone home' form of 'security'?Nothing. Not a thing.

I was reading something earlier today on Sony's official website, where they were hinting (very transparently I might add) about the "advantages" of leaving one's PS3 connected to the internet, 24/7 'round the clock. They didn't say it outright, but it's not hard to read between the lines.

That's about the dumbest thing I can think of anyone doing. Someone ought to develop a sort-of Sony-Firewall-Protection-Program to insert between their PS3s (or blu-ray players) and Sony's online servers.

Beware of candy-coated phrases like "viewer enhancements", "added-value", "enriched viewer experience", and the like. It's mostly just a load of self-serving DRM.

6.3.2008 17:30 #45

goodswipe

Originally posted by juankerr: LOL! One of the classic moments in American film history!

When is this coming out in HD????I totally agree, just thinking about that episode really cracked me up! I would definitely buy that series in HD if they offered it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Cornholio

"look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

6.3.2008 17:32 #46

juankerr

Originally posted by goodswipe: Originally posted by juankerr: LOL! One of the classic moments in American film history!

When is this coming out in HD????I totally agree, just thinking about that episode really cracked me up! I would definitely buy that series in HD if they offered it.

" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Cornholio

I was referring to the movie but I guess that line was originally in the series:

http://www.amazon.com/Butt-Head-America-...04842926&sr=8-5

6.3.2008 17:37 #47

A_Klingon

Quote:Does that mean Warner has my personal data too?More than likely. As well as your shoe size and favourite colour too.

In fact, Warner (or one of their drones) is reading all of your posts *right now* as fast as you can type 'em!

-- Paranoid Klingy --

6.3.2008 17:40 #48

goodswipe

Originally posted by juankerr: Originally posted by goodswipe: Originally posted by juankerr: LOL! One of the classic moments in American film history!

When is this coming out in HD????I totally agree, just thinking about that episode really cracked me up! I would definitely buy that series in HD if they offered it.

" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Cornholio

I was referring to the movie but I guess that line was originally in the series:

" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Butt-Head-America-...&sr=8-5

Oh yea, he did do that character in Beavis and Butt-Head Do America. But he originally started the character in the tv series.

"look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

6.3.2008 17:44 #49

eatsushi

Originally posted by A_Klingon: More than likely. As well as your shoe size and favourite colour too.

In fact, Warner (or one of their drones) is reading all of your posts *right now* as fast as you can type 'em!

-- Paranoid Klingy --SO if I order from U-Shop then Universal will know about my TP preferences. Oh well, at least it's environmentally friendly.

6.3.2008 17:46 #50

goodswipe

Quote:SO if I order from U-Shop then Universal will know about my TP preferences. Oh well, at least it's environmentally friendly.Better watch out, you're gonna be receiving Angel Soft and Charmin TP coupons in the mail.

"look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

6.3.2008 17:53 #51

Ryu77

eatsushi, did you see I posted a reply to your kind advice?
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/636265/3849853

I am eager to hear if you had any further advice... :-D

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

6.3.2008 18:04 #52

ripxrush

of course not $ grubbing wh0rez, if HD_DVD where still a contender you would bet your Arse you would have a sub $200 if not almost $100 this year now that there is no more competition there will be nothing to drive the market down in price & up in quality/options

6.3.2008 19:57 #53

akkuma

wow people are willing to give thier privacy for a dam ps3. only a fool would leave his ps3 hooked up online 247, soon u may have to log in or put in ur password just to watch a blu-ray movie. all these clowns who prayed for the demise of hd-dvd that without competition sony will monopolize the format and never lower prices!

6.3.2008 21:00 #54

Ryu77

Originally posted by akkuma: wow people are willing to give thier privacy for a dam ps3. only a fool would leave his ps3 hooked up online 247, soon u may have to log in or put in ur password just to watch a blu-ray movie. all these clowns who prayed for the demise of hd-dvd that without competition sony will monopolize the format and never lower prices!I am getting very tired of this argument but here's a couple facts to consider...

1) HD-DVD hardware prices were dropped so heavily out of desperation to clear stock before they finally went under. This created artificial expectation among consumers for a price benchmark that this technology was simply not at yet. How much were DVD players when they were first introduced to the market? These HD players have entered the market at a lower price bracket and it's what... 10 years or so later (DVD was introduced in December 1995 to be exact).

2) This news article has clearly stated they anticipate Blu-ray players to be available in the $300 range by the end of next year. This in itself is already a major improvement in the price drop curve over the previous DVD technology. I remember regular DVD players sitting in the $500+ bracket for many years.

3) The PS2 was launched with a price tag of $749 in November 2000 (In Australia)... Now it is sold for $180. Even the original Playstation (PSX) was launched here at $699 back in 1995. We can already get a PS3 for that same price and it's 13 years later... Yet somehow that equals greediness from Sony.

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

6.3.2008 21:37 #55

elfman12

Quote:I am getting very tired of this argument but here's a couple facts to consider...
Man, those 3 points are all stretches.

1. HD-DVD prices were under the $200 range around the time of the Paramount deal. Things were not "desperate" at that time, by far.

2. Regular DVD players were NOT $500 (average) for "many years". That's just nonsense. There were higher end players that were, and progressive scans, but player prices were under $200 within this same time frame of HD (under 3 years).

3. You're comparing PS2 prices at launch to now? That's just such a non-argument.

BR is pricey and will be for some time. No big news there. Those who want it can get it and enjoy it, and watch some fantastic movie presentations. But it's still pricey.

6.3.2008 23:51 #56

Mr-Movies

Quote:Quote:I am getting very tired of this argument but here's a couple facts to consider...
Man, those 3 points are all stretches.

1. HD-DVD prices were under the $200 range around the time of the Paramount deal. Things were not "desperate" at that time, by far.

2. Regular DVD players were NOT $500 (average) for "many years". That's just nonsense. There were higher end players that were, and progressive scans, but player prices were under $200 within this same time frame of HD (under 3 years).

3. You're comparing PS2 prices at launch to now? That's just such a non-argument.

BR is pricey and will be for some time. No big news there. Those who want it can get it and enjoy it, and watch some fantastic movie presentations. But it's still pricey.Man you are out right wrong, Ryu77 is right on the nut plus there are more examples like CDR's were $60 when they first came out and didn't drop to $3 a piece for a couple of years. Also those high end players were not progressive scan that didn't come out until just recent. DVD-DL's just recently dropped below $3 and it�s been how long since they were introduced? Especially when you can get BDR's at $12 and they hold 3x as much data and are relatively new.

I think Ryu77 is a mature adult that doesn't live in fantasy land watching cartoons pretending the world is something it's not.

Here is a little more fuel to fire, why would they waste their time adding a dead format like DivX to a BD player? The majority of people don't even know what DivX is, now I know that there is a real clan that swears by it but the numbers are just not there.

7.3.2008 00:22 #57

Ryu77

Originally posted by elfman12: Quote:I am getting very tired of this argument but here's a couple facts to consider...
Man, those 3 points are all stretches.

1. HD-DVD prices were under the $200 range around the time of the Paramount deal. Things were not "desperate" at that time, by far.

2. Regular DVD players were NOT $500 (average) for "many years". That's just nonsense. There were higher end players that were, and progressive scans, but player prices were under $200 within this same time frame of HD (under 3 years).

3. You're comparing PS2 prices at launch to now? That's just such a non-argument.

BR is pricey and will be for some time. No big news there. Those who want it can get it and enjoy it, and watch some fantastic movie presentations. But it's still pricey.Yes, thank you Mr-Movies. I am glad there are other adults here at Afterdawn.

elfman12, if you are going to make opposing statements it would be nice if you could bother to include some facts to back up your opinion. At this point without facts, that's all it is... Is an opinion. I will now post my defence on each of my 3 points that you stated your opinion on. Only once again I will include facts...

1) Are you the CEO of Toshiba or any of the other companies directly involved in HD-DVD? How on Earth could you possibly know how much they were sweating it out at that point in time in the format war. They would never reveal such information to the public. It would only be the people at the top of the chain that would know this. They are the people that control the retail environment of HD-DVD. It was obvious they were on a downhill slide for quite some time with the recent announcement of their demise. How long do you think it takes for such a highly invested in format to take a downward swing? It certainly didn't happen overnight.

2) Oh yes they were! If you don't mind me asking how old were you in 1995 when they were first introduced into the market? I remember buying a second hand Toshiba DVD player in 2001 for about $200 (Australian). It was anything but high end. It was as basic as can be. It was big and chunky, it had a set of composite (Yellow, Red, White) connectors on the rear and that was it! So 6 years after they hit the market, I paid $200 for a second hand DVD player and that was the best buy I could find in the classifieds. If I can recall correctly the same unit new was about $500 at the time. Also, remember all of the current Blu-ray players in the market today are considered "high end". As the news article also states, they do not want to allow those Chinese Butchers to manufacture their players at this point in time.

3) Ok then, let's look only at launch prices! As I previously said in Australia the original PSX console launched for $699 in 1995. The PS2 was launched for $749 in 2000. So 5 years later the replacement technology cost $50 extra. I don't even think this is in line with the inflation index. Now the PS3 launched in 2006 with 2 models in Australia, the 60gb model with a RRP of $999 and the 20gb model with a RRP $829. Since the previous Playstation models didn't even include hard drives, this really should be taken into the equation but I will be conservative and leave it in there to prove my point.

Now in the next part of my post I have used an inflation calculator from... http://www.rba.gov.au/calculator/calc.go

PSX launch: $699 in 1995 = $768.75 in 2000 (PS2 launch year) or $924.12 in 2006 (PS3 launch year)
PS2 launch: $749 in 2000 = $900.37 in 2006 (PS3 launch year)

So as you can see the PS3 with the 60gb launch of $999 was just over these figures, and the 20gb at $829 was under. As I said previously the HDD really should be taken into price consideration and be deducted from these figures. The PS3 is far more equipped than Sony's previous two models. So, I feel that we are getting a far better package for the same money we spent 10 odd years ago.

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

7.3.2008 04:05 #58

eatsushi

Originally posted by Ryu77: eatsushi, did you see I posted a reply to your kind advice?
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/636265/3849853

I am eager to hear if you had any further advice... :-DSorry I never got to your reply. The discussion about TP was distracting.

I don't work in the audio/video industry but it's a serious hobby. I do know a few people who do custom installation and professional calibration.

I showed one of them the picture of your setup and he had a few suggestions.

>He believes your components are still getting quite a bit of vibration not just from the center channel speaker but also from the two subwoofers right next to them. He suggests isolators for all of your components. He says the vibrapods are a good choice but there's others out there for all budgets.

>About your subs, as you may know the sound coming from a subwoofer is omnidirectional, meaning it's not clearly localized. The best placement of the subs depends your room acoustics. He suggests experimenting with different placements for your subs. He suspects placing them at the far corners of the room could yield better results.

7.3.2008 10:21 #59

atomicxl

I don't know who honestly thought that players would go for $200. I bet those $299 ones will be clearence on the out of spec players that can't be upgraded to in-spec. With HD-DVD dead, its either buy us for whatever price we say or continue to watch mediocre quality on your $1000+ tv.

7.3.2008 13:03 #60

mscritsm

Originally posted by Pop_Smith: And so it begins, the evil $ony corp. and its DBA associates are once again (at least for now) confirming they really don't want to take over DVD with their DRM-infection. They just want to make as much dough as possible.

PeaceIt's more than just making as much dough as possible. It cost Sony hundreds of millions in payoffs to movie companies to get them to switch to Blu-ray. They have to make that back before they can ever make a penny in Blu-ray profit. Over time most of their Blu-ray profit will come from royalty fees on Blu-ray disks, but to get that payola money back as soon as possible they have to keep high royalty fees on the players themselves for the next year or two at least. And as others have noted, high player prices also help channel more Blu-ray buyers to the PS3 where Sony hopes to capture more revenue on value-added PS3 services having nothing to do with Blu-ray.

7.3.2008 14:56 #61

Ryu77

Originally posted by eatsushi: Originally posted by Ryu77: eatsushi, did you see I posted a reply to your kind advice?
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/636265/3849853

I am eager to hear if you had any further advice... :-DSorry I never got to your reply. The discussion about TP was distracting.

I don't work in the audio/video industry but it's a serious hobby. I do know a few people who do custom installation and professional calibration.

I showed one of them the picture of your setup and he had a few suggestions.

>He believes your components are still getting quite a bit of vibration not just from the center channel speaker but also from the two subwoofers right next to them. He suggests isolators for all of your components. He says the vibrapods are a good choice but there's others out there for all budgets.

>About your subs, as you may know the sound coming from a subwoofer is omnidirectional, meaning it's not clearly localized. The best placement of the subs depends your room acoustics. He suggests experimenting with different placements for your subs. He suspects placing them at the far corners of the room could yield better results.Thank you for going out of your way to seek professional advice. Yes, I am aware that subs are omni directional. As I said in my other post... They are omni directional enough to shake my whole house... lol! I will try some different positions but I am limited to what I can do. To the right of that picture I have my PC set-up which also acts as a Home Theater/Media Center PC (DTV recorder, music & video storage etc.).

Once again, thank you for your advice. :-D

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

7.3.2008 15:33 #62

hughjars

The new Toshiba Super Upconversion DVD players may well kill off Blu-ray as far as the movie market goes.

It's still SD DVD using regular SD DVD movie discs but (like forensic scientists doing image enhancement) uses, in real time, several movie frames to provide much more detail than 1 frame alone.

The obvious linkage to SD DVD could well be the bit that seals the deal for many people.
No new media discs or new labels or big price tickets to scare the wider mass-market people away with.

The Blu-ray side may well come to regret not going for much low prices much sooner.

8.3.2008 11:32 #63

ZippyDSM

Originally posted by hughjars: The new Toshiba Super Upconversion DVD players may well kill off Blu-ray as far as the movie market goes.

It's still SD DVD using regular SD DVD movie discs but (like forensic scientists doing image enhancement) uses, in real time, several movie frames to provide much more detail than 1 frame alone.

The obvious linkage to SD DVD could well be the bit that seals the deal for many people.
No new media discs or new labels or big price tickets to scare the wider mass-market people away with.

The Blu-ray side may well come to regret not going for much low prices much sooner.For the short run I can see this but after a certain price and saturation point (market,amount of BR films,ect,ect) BR will out pace DVD, I say 3-5 years mainly because sony will dig deep to get things released BR only if they do what they did to DVD sony sow up the home market in 3 but more realistically I can see DVD being like what VHS was 10ish years ago.

8.3.2008 11:39 #64

hughjars

I think you're kidding yourself if you seriously imagine Blu-ray will be anywhere even close to the market share of DVD within the next 3 - 5 years Zippy.

....and Sony have shelled out a fortune already.

The whole point about Super Upconversion is that it renders Blu-ray etc etc rather pointless - and all with the existing SD DVD movie discs
(and yes that would have applied to HD DVD too).

It also means no-one has to worry about changing production lines and yields etc etc (which is still very much the weak-point in the BD chain).

If the Super Upconversion players are to be priced at the same level as brand name SD DVD players (or even better if they licence to China fast) why would anyone want pay out so much more for the same
(in fact it works out to being less as Blu-ray introduces several inconveniences by being a differnt format)?

8.3.2008 12:07 #65

juankerr

7 Things Toshiba Won't Tell You About SUC

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=47406

Quote:7. All those Online and Interactive features they've been touting for the past 2 years aren't going to be supported with only SUC. Say bye bye to things like seamless menus, BD-J (or HDi), and in-move experience

6. The Price. It appears Toshiba invested nearly a billion dollars into CELL, not to get a piece of the PS3 pie, but for the raw power of CELL to do SUC for them. Toshiba has spent a Billion dollars on just the processor behind SUC, that doesn't include other components, labor, and shipping costs, so just how "cheap" is a SUC player going to be when they hit the market??? I doubt Toshiba is going to be selling these things at hundreds bellow cost, they gotta get back some of that money they wasted on HD DVD.

5. While you have an HD picture, no way you are going to get an HD sound out of a SUC player. Once again Home Theater Enthusists are going to snub these players, that are geared towards them, because of the lack of HD audio.

4. No Blu-ray or HD DVD support. Like I said, these things are geared towards Home Theater Enthusists, many who have already invested in Blu-ray or HD DVD. So all those Blu-rays and HD DVDs you have, won't work on this player.

3. No hard protective coating. Smudges and scratches are much more likely to ruin your software than with Blu-ray.

2. When is it coming out? This Xmas, next summer, next Xmas???? Either way, thats a long time with just watching standard upconverted DVDs and if you invest in blu-ray for the time being, those discs aren't going to work on your Super-Upconvert player.

1. Its 960p....MAX! Imagine a movie that the camera is very still in. This technology needs movement in order to derive the 960p data. If the camera is still or realitvely still and there isn't much change in the video data, your right back to 480p standard upconversion. Or think of a fast moving scene. Think of the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey, when those brilliant colors are flashing. What happens when the 4 previous scenes had a green hue, the middle scene has a red hue, and the upcoming 5 scenes have a yellow hue. what the hell is this thing going to do? It can either block out the other 8 scenes and give you once again only 480p upscaled or it can give you the wrong image. Only in the perfect settings is this thing 960p, other than that the quality is going to be less than 960p and even at the perfect settings the picture is still over 10% less clear than blu-ray disc.
Quote:The most important thing that Toshiba wont tell you is simply this.
It will NEVER look or sound as good as Blu-ray.

8.3.2008 12:25 #66

hughjars

Originally posted by juankerr:
7. All those Online and Interactive features they've been touting for the past 2 years aren't going to be supported with only SUC. - I thought everyone agreed no-one cares about this stuff?

Originally posted by juankerr:
6. The Price. It appears Toshiba invested nearly a billion dollars into CELL, not to get a piece of the PS3 pie, but for the raw power of CELL to do SUC for them. Toshiba has spent a Billion dollars on just the processor behind SUC, that doesn't include other components, labor, and shipping costs, so just how "cheap" is a SUC player going to be when they hit the market? - That doesn't do anything but pose a question we won't know the answer to for a while yet.

Why should it be hugely expensive as they imply?

Cell was not bought only for this and it's costs will be shared amongst the other products that will use it.

Originally posted by juankerr:
5. While you have an HD picture, no way you are going to get an HD sound out of a SUC player. - The mass-market could care less.

Originally posted by juankerr:
4. No Blu-ray or HD DVD support. - The mass-market could care less.

Originally posted by juankerr: 3. No hard protective coating. Smudges and scratches are much more likely to ruin your software than with Blu-ray. - The mass-market could care less.

DVD is hardly renouned for being scratch prone......and the coating is a matter of manufacturers choice, it is not something that comes as a part of the Blu-ray spec as an extra it is a necessitity.

There is nothing to stop clued-in disc manufacturers using the coating on all their disc based products
(and if they weren't so greedy they would do that already for us all).

Originally posted by juankerr:
2. When is it coming out? This Xmas, next summer, next Xmas. - We'll see soon enough.

Either way it'll be long before there is any sign of a genuine mass-market move towards Blu-ray.

Originally posted by juankerr:
1. Its 960p....MAX! - The mass-market could care less.

Quote:The most important thing that Toshiba wont tell you is simply this.
It will NEVER look or sound as good as Blu-ray. - Yeah right.

First of all - according to whom?
The blu-ray.com fanclub?

Secondly if it is a matter of only being slightly down on image quality (and an irrelevant audio quality as far as the mass-market is concerned) but is significantly much cheaper than Blu-ray and all using regular SD DVD discs and without all the DRM sh*te Blu-ray forces on us?
Who cares?

8.3.2008 12:36 #67

juankerr

Originally posted by hughjars:
- The mass-market could care less.
- The mass-market could care less.
- The mass-market could care less.
Who cares?The same thing could be said about SUC.

As long as there's upconverters for $50 or less at WalMart then:

...the mass market could care less about SUC.

8.3.2008 12:49 #68

Ryu77

How can it be the same? No matter what sort of forensic scientist you claim will live in these Super Dooper up-conversion DVD players...

It's like comparing a 5 megapixel still image with a 2 megapixel image. No matter how good your forensic software is, you could never re-create a 5 megapixel image pixel for pixel from a 2 megapixel image. They will get close, but close doesn't cut it in the High-Def game.

The detail can't be re-created in it's 100% true form from a lower resolution source. It's common sense.

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

8.3.2008 12:51 #69

hughjars

Originally posted by Ryu77: How can it be the same? No matter what sort of forensic scientist you claim will live in these Super Dooper up-conversion DVD players...

It's like comparing a 5 megapixel still image with a 2 megapixel image. No matter how good your forensic software is, you could never re-create a 5 megapixel image pixel for pixel from a 2 megapixel image. They will get close, but close doesn't cut it in the High-Def game.

The detail can't be re-created in it's 100% true form from a lower resolution source. It's common sense. - Well, following your analogy.....

.....it gets very close to being the same (if not quite actually being exactly the same) because the several preceeding and following 2 megapixel frames it selects and uses to scan do not contain the exact same 2 megapixels of information and by extracting and combining those differences a far higher level of genuine detail can be obtained.

That's how a large part of forensic movie image enhancement works and has worked for decades, there's no new magic to it, the new bit is a cheap processor able to do this in real-time in your DVD player.

Ultimately this will all revolve around costs.

We will see soon enough about what those are likely to be.

If this is priced well it could well see Blu-ray confined to being a short-lived & mostly PS3 game console based niche product as the mass-market continues to stick with SD DVD movie discs and enjoys a new level of detail over and above what upscaling gives them now on their HD TVs.

The fact that it uses existing SD DVD movie discs and the fact that no means high def (with perhaps the exception of growing HD TV services) has broken into the real mass-market yet is the clincher IMO.

......but, interestingly, if anything the quote Juankerr provided illustrates just how worried some people are about this new approach to DVD.

Interesting times ahead.

8.3.2008 13:09 #70

Ryu77

Originally posted by hughjars: ......but, interestingly, if anything the quote Juankerr provided illustrates just how worried some people are about this new approach to DVD.Why would we be worried?

I am all for advances in technology. I am not so close minded to shut out technology just because I have decided to be be loyal to another brand. Put it this way, if it was the other way around in this recent format war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD, and HD-DVD ended up being the format of choice. I would be looking at purchasing a HD-DVD player. I always look for the positive in any given situation. If this SUP device could truly give a picture as good as Blu-ray or HD-DVD... Of course I would want one. I have about 500 regular DVD's too.

It's just common sense that tells me that higher resolution video, higher bitrates, more efficient codecs and uncompressed/lossless sound equals a far better home theater experience.

I don't mean to sound rude hughjars but sometimes I just don't get you. You seem to be an AV enthusiast but yet you are promoting a device with technology that is sub standard to Blu-ray or HD-DVD. What's this all about? Don't you want the absolute best?... I know I do.

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

8.3.2008 13:28 #71

hughjars

Originally posted by Ryu77: Why would we be worried? - I didn't mean you (or anyone else here) personally.

I didn't look but I do expect that little list Juankerr gave came from a Blu-ray fan or fanclub site.

Originally posted by Ryu77: It's just common sense that tells me that higher resolution video, higher bitrates, more efficient codecs and uncompressed/lossless sound equals a far better home theater experience. - Well in simplistic terms I'd agree.

But it's not just about absolute judgements and there are wider concerns.

Blu-ray's DRM issues leave me utterly cold and I just won't accept it at any price.

I'm also highly sceptical about Blu-ray production limitations and costs equating to 'the best' in the longer term either.
I expect to see a lot of cheaper 25gb issues as people now forget about having to compete with HD DVD.

Originally posted by Ryu77: I don't mean to sound rude hughjars but sometimes I just don't get you. You seem to be an AV enthusiast but yet you are promoting a device with technology that is sub standard to Blu-ray or HD-DVD. - No.

I'm not "promoting" anything.

I do think that Super Upconversion could be the obvious & practical means of taking high def to the masses at a genuinely cost-effective level that sees some form of high def finally take off.

Because of the issues with Blu-ray I'd really rather that Blu-ray was not the format to do that and I'm more than happy to look for that anywhere other than Blu-ray.

But I really don't see this method as being a weird or hopeless contender, the hook-up with everyone's SD DVD collection is very very interesting & a very obvious lure to every SD DVD owner out there.

Originally posted by Ryu77: What's this all about? Don't you want the absolute best?... I know I do. - I don't, not at any price & if it comes with all the potential horrors Blu-ray incorporates.

8.3.2008 14:36 #72

juankerr

For the true AV enthusiast, upconversion - super or otherwise - is nothing but a stopgap measure and a temporary solution until they release your favorite catalog title in full 1080p. For major new releases there is just no acceptable solution but to get the high def version.

Quote:I didn't look but I do expect that little list Juankerr gave came from a Blu-ray fan or fanclub site. Try highdef digest.

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=47406

BTW, Ryu77 - that's a nice home theater setup you have there.
http://i.my.afterdawn.com/original/16117.JPG
You must have spent a small fortune on it. I don't blame you for wanting only the best media to play on it. You simply don't put regular unleaded in your Lexus.

8.3.2008 15:46 #73

hughjars

stockstar1138

60GB PS3
Blu-ray games - 8
Blu-ray movies - 56

Like I said, a bit of a Blu-ray fan (and I wonder where he pinched it from, Blu-ray.com?)

Like it or not Super Upconversion is a means of extracting genuine additional detail from the SD DVD source.

It might well be the real 'winner' in all of this.

8.3.2008 16:08 #74

juankerr

Originally posted by hughjars: genuine additional detail from the SD DVD source.
"genuine additional detail"

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine.

8.3.2008 16:35 #75

hughjars

Originally posted by juankerr: "genuine additional detail"

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine. - Well this is where this 'debate' just gets ridiculous.

It seems that the Blu-ray fanclub have decided to slam this tech as mere upscaling with a couple of bells and whistles tacked on.

It isn't.

Anyone who doesn't get the point about each frame of video having different detail compared to that which the next may have is never going to get this.

I suggest looking up what the forensic cops do to enhance video and pull in genuine new and additional detail from film.
This is the same thing, it's just that now there is a chipset that will do it in real-time on your DVD player.

I am also intrigued about the 960p reference, obviously thats 2 x the USA's much lower 480 line res TV.

In Europe we have PAL 625 lines (which might help explain why upscaling and high def is not the huge leap here as it might be in the USA).

Maybe we'll get the 1080p stuff?

8.3.2008 17:04 #76

error5

Originally posted by juankerr:
"genuine additional detail"

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine.Toshiba demonstrated their spursengine or "super resolution" engine at the recent CES. It consisted of using 9 video frames to create one single STILL frame at about double the resolution (960p). This technique is similar to what astrophotographers use to increase the power of their sensors.

However, doing this to produce higher resolution video is another thing. Like one of the mods at avsforums said:

Quote:I can see taking multiple video frames and coming up with a higher resolution still frame. But I'm really skeptical about taking x number of video frames "look ahead" and constructing a single video frame and keep doing this constantly to produce "upconverted" video. At the very least it would take a lot of processing power,If Toshiba is able to do this with a Cell processor-based engine in the next few years I will be surprised if this player will come in at a "mass market" price. The process could entail years of expensive R&D with players requiring enormous CPU/GPU power and launch prices beyond the reach of j6p. By the time this gets off the ground we could be seeing sub-$200 BluRay players.

What I see happening is Toshiba developing a high-end Cell-based BluRay player with SUC built-in.

8.3.2008 17:15 #77

juankerr

Originally posted by error5: It consisted of using 9 video frames to create one single STILL frame at about double the resolution (960p). This technique is similar to what astrophotographers use to increase the power of their sensors...

If Toshiba is able to do this with a Cell processor-based engine in the next few years I will be surprised if this player will come in at a "mass market" price. So you use 9 video frames to produce one single STILL frame.

I can see how this can work with astrophotography where you have minimal or no motion and you have a single reference point.

Try doing this though with high-motion action sequences with multiple camera angle changes and you'll see the problem. You have to have

Quote:2D images converted into exact 3D models with all 8 frames scaled/modified/rotated to match perfectly overlayed in 4D time and interpolated in 3D and broadcast a 2D frame with slightly more detail in less than a half a second without pointers or meshes not encoded into the film.

Right.

That is exactly what you would need to do to interpolate ANY video that moves, zooms out/in, changes camera angle, etc.

Try overlaying 4 frames zooming out or in, and you'll get a blurry mess unless it's scaled correctly.The Cell broadband engine could be up to the task but I don't see how they could make this work without millions in R&D and an expensive high-end launch player. It won't be cheap and it still won't be HD.

8.3.2008 18:06 #78

hughjars

Originally posted by juankerr: It won't be cheap and it still won't be HD. - That's just you guessing about this as far as the costs go and I simply think you are wrong to claim it won't be 'true' HD.

Everything I've read about the demo states it is genuine 960p native res HD.

There's a Youtube about it here -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qxa1zv5uI
and it does show moving images, not just static images.

....and if people generally don't see high def as worth the premium over upscaled SD DVD and the claims about this being low cost are true then what hope has Blu-ray got against this (better) upconversion tech?

Like I said, there is every chance that Blu-ray not only fails to defeat SD DVD anyways but that tech of this kind renders it utterly pointless (outside of being a medium for PS3 games).

Given that Sony & the BDA have spent up on Blu-ray I'd say this is their nightmare scenario, almost everyone except the devout PS3 crew sticks with SD DVD and, as they replace their regular DVD players with these Super Upconversion players over time, see significant improvements in playing back their regular DVD collections.

Now that would be an irony to make me laugh out loud.

Anyhoo, I prefer to await the reality of this tech before I jump to the self-serving conclusions the Blu-ray fanclub obviously would prefer us all to jump to, thanks.

Like many others I am in no hurry to see how this all works out.

There are plenty of other routes to high def without Blu-ray and all the greedy corporate garbage it brings with it.

They tried to use their Blu-ray tech to f*ck the sharers, so of course I'm happy to look to developments which may well end up f*cking them mightily & royally.

Up the sharers!

8.3.2008 20:21 #79

Ryu77

Originally posted by juankerr: "genuine additional detail"

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine.Who's a Moron?? Ohh... Your post was directed to hughjars. That's ok then. :-P

BTW... This is only meant to be funny. Sometimes these threads could use a little more humour. :-D

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

9.3.2008 00:34 #80

nobrainer

There are too many detracting posts on this topic which is classic PR blogger spin. F,Off corporate shills, go back to AVForums and Highdefdigest forums and spew you rubbish there to make ppl believe you are an enthusiast to sell you DRM hobbled warez.

topic = "Sony not expecting $200 Blu-ray players before next year"

there is now no need as the competition to secure the format has been decided and what was decided was Blu-Ray and the extra level of DRM over HD-DvD.

The problem is the mass public do not care about DRM-Ray, as up-converting DVD players on a 40" screen or less, at ten feet looks almost exactly the same as the Blu-Ray HD flick.

blu-ray is a pointless format that is here purely to lock content down with the introduction of, HDCP HDMI, AACS (broken), BD+ (anti consumer blu-ray only), ICT (yet to be turned on 2010 and is only being delayed to sell off all none compliant screens and help the up-take of HD equipment), Rom Mark(blu-ray only DRM also) Global price fixing DRM tool, regional coding that was only on Blu-Ray not HD-DvD.

ICT : http://www.boingboing.net/2006/05/23/hdmi-the-manchurian-.html
ICT : http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060521-6880.html
EFF: http://www.eff.org/work

Originally posted by Cory Doctorow: Hollywood studios and some CE manufacturers have reportedly entered into an informal agreement to hold off on using the "image constraint token" in HDMI DRM until 2010 or 2012. The image constraint token is a flag in a video signal that instructs receivers, DVD players and other high-definition sources to "down-rez" their output to a low-definition signal when connecting to an "untrusted" screen or other sink.

This is a classic Manchurian Candidate strategy. These devices behave like normal gear until the studios pull the trigger, then they turn on you. The studios talk a big game about wanting to operate in a free market, but then you get stuff like this: back-room deals, restraint of trade, and attempts to subvert the market by fooling customers into buying crippled kit.

The conundrum isn't apparently lost on the consumer electronics industry or Hollywood. According to German-language Spiegel Online, there is reportedly a behind-the-scenes, unofficial agreement between Hollywood and some consumer electronics manufacturers, including Microsoft and Sony, not to use ICT until 2010, or possibly even 2012. Without providing more details, the report suggests that Hollywood isn't exactly happy with the situation, and could very well renege on the agreement, such that it is. But the agreement is there nonetheless, presumably to help the industry transition to HDMI. This could explain why the very same studios that pushed for HDMI and ICT have recently announced that they would not use it for the time being.

9.3.2008 07:29 #81

Ryu77

Originally posted by nobrainer: There are too many detracting posts on this topic which is classic PR blogger spin. F,Off corporate shills, go back to AVForums and Highdefdigest forums and spew you rubbish there to make ppl believe you are an enthusiast to sell you DRM hobbled warez.

topic = "Sony not expecting $200 Blu-ray players before next year"

there is now no need as the competition to secure the format has been decided and what was decided was Blu-Ray and the extra level of DRM over HD-DvD.

The problem is the mass public do not care about DRM-Ray, as up-converting DVD players on a 40" screen or less, at ten feet looks almost exactly the same as the Blu-Ray HD flick.

blu-ray is a pointless format that is here purely to lock content down with the introduction of, HDCP HDMI, AACS (broken), BD+ (anti consumer blu-ray only), ICT (yet to be turned on 2010 and is only being delayed to sell off all none compliant screens and help the up-take of HD equipment), Rom Mark(blu-ray only DRM also) Global price fixing DRM tool, regional coding that was only on Blu-Ray not HD-DvD.Ok since you think it is ok to say F Off to whoever it is here you are referring to, I will take the liberty and suggest you do that.

I for one do not want to see your negative BS anymore. Isn't your style of posting against forum rules? I thought format bashing wasn't allowed. I'm not sure if this rule still applies to news threads or not.

Mods, can we please get this rule clarified?

This is a Blu-ray thread and instead of Blu-ray enthusiasts discussing positive things that the future will bring we have to deal with people like you. Go away! Nobody likes you here (except hughjars). I believe that if you haven't got something good or helpful to say about the topic at hand then don't bother posting!

Just to finish off, you said in the aforementioned quote... "F,Off corporate shills, go back to AVForums and Highdefdigest forums and spew you rubbish there to make ppl believe you are an enthusiast to sell you DRM hobbled warez"

Can I ask, what sort of set-up do you have? I am not trying to have a superiority contest, I am simply attempting to discover if you are an AV enthusiast. I know that you don't own a HD player of any kind, not even HD-DVD so I was just curious about the rest.

"Worry is like a Rocking Chair, it gives you something to do but it gets you nowhere"

9.3.2008 08:37 #82

LOCOENG

Quote:F,Off corporate shills, go back to AVForums and Highdefdigest forums and spew you rubbish there to make ppl believe you are an enthusiast to sell you DRM hobbled warez. It's not your place to make these requests...

Just remember people, even though the war is over the personal attacks still will not be tolerated.

Don't forget about your Buddies The rules ~ http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487

9.3.2008 08:38 #83

FredBun

It just never ceases to amaze me, now that toshiba hd is out, now you can buy one of thier players for $79, you know they are not giving it away, they want to get back at least what it cost them, meaning thats what those damn things really cost to begin with, and yet sony will continue getting thier ridiculious price for thier blue ray, and we the stupid consumer will pay it.

And yet I have seen these blurays and hd's, have seen them on my friends 32" lcd screen, not much of a difference at all, even at a 40", I did see a difference when you get bigger than than, other wise a waste of money.

And last, $ony along with thier drm and rootkits can kiss my American ass.

15.3.2008 05:55 #84

AfterDawn: News