AfterDawn: News

MPAA goes after Newzbin

The premier Usenet indexing site Newzbin has announced that it is now under attack from the MPAA and it seems the the service will either have to change significantly or face a shutdown.

Newzbin is the creator of the NZB format, generally considered to be Usenet's equivalent of a .torrent file. Usenet was generally considered to be complicated to use before the format emerged.



It seems the MPAA has noticed as well however. Newzbin administrator ‘Caesium’ made this announcement last week:
"Newzbin has today received a letter from the Motion Picture Association (MPA). In the letter, they claim that some editors may be reporting material from Usenet that is infringing the copyright of their members.

While these claims have not been substantiated, it should be noted that Newzbin does not condone the distribution or indexing of such materials. We will immediately act to remove any items that are found to be infringing copyright.

Please take a moment to refer to our Terms and Conditions, in particular sections 4 and 4.2.

Please note that we may revoke privileges, or ban accounts, of users found to be violating these Terms and Conditions."

The MPAA could have issues however. The company complies completely with UK laws and they remove any infringing files when notified. In the past the MPAA has shut down several US-based NZB sites such as NZB-Zone and forced others to adjust the way they operate.

Caesium also noted that there might have to be changes implemented for the site to keep running, such as having all ".NZB related reports removed." They could also follow the arrangement of BinNews.com which removed "only the posts related to movies and TV shows," when the MPAA came knocking.

We will keep you updated.

Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 29 May 2008 17:25

• Previous article

• Sony's Hot Ticket to distribute alternative content for digital theaters

• Next article

• Sony's Stringer talks out about PS3 profitability and Blu-ray

• 35 comments

• domie

  I think a lot of sites and commentators need to take a close look at the current UK laws because depending on your point of view - Newzbin etc does NOT comply with them.
  The copyright, designs and patents act 1988 was recently updated although little press attention has been paid to it -
  The crucial wording is
  Quote:Under section 107(2) a person commits an offence who -
  (a) makes an article specially designed or adapted for making copies of a particular copyright work,
  Now the question is - what exactly is an "article" ? You can see how this could open a can of worms in a court case but also allows UK authorities to begin a prosecution claiming that an NZB file is an article designed for making copies of copyrighted work.
  
  Of course i'm not in favour of it but you can see how they can try and persuade a court to view it in that light and the way the UK justice system works - would anyone owning such a site want to try their luck in court ? As the owner of an ed2k site living in the UK who was busted under this law last year - I certainly didn't feel like taking the risk.

  29.5.2008 18:43 #1

• Footie979

  Any good similar alternatives to Newzbin? I wasn't a customer, but I browsed. Now you can't even browse listings for free.

  29.5.2008 19:01 #2

• smokyrain

  Originally posted by Footie979: Any good similar alternatives to Newzbin? I wasn't a customer, but I browsed. Now you can't even browse listings for free.Just google .nzb and I am sure you will find many.
  
  Geez the MPAA just don't stop do they.
  
  Curious to see how that all ends up.

  29.5.2008 22:19 #3

• Blackjax

  di di di dii dii di dii dii di di........
  
  ticker paper rolls out of the machine and reads:
  
  News flash Everyone in the world who uses a toilet receives letter from mpaa telling them to cease and desist. Claims made that everyone is infringing upon what their clients have benn producing for some years now.

  30.5.2008 02:54 #4

• cousinkix

  USENET is not FREE. It is a money making venture, for those who want to profit, from allowing other people to download somebody elses' copyrighted music and videos. So bust them for that, for all I care. Those kind of scumbags are what really pizzes off the rock stars...

  30.5.2008 04:04 #5

• JOHNSTARR

  Where do you think all the top torrent sites get 99% of there things from? Hmmmm newsgroups
  
  That will definitely hinder the chain of command for awhile
  

  Premium 360 Benq 1.3
  XBOX 1.4- Zenium Chipped 300 Gb Maxtor HD
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  30.5.2008 05:48 #6

• varnull

  Damn.. looks like it's back to metasploit and spam emails to distribute malware again. Shame.. we were getting 20,000 keylogger backdoors installed every day.
  
  Anyway.. it's about time these profiteering scumbags got taken down. I remember when the newsnet was free.
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... #1 image again.. check it out ;)

  30.5.2008 06:21 #7

• hape

  Originally posted by varnull: I remember when the newsnet was free.I think then newsnet wasn't VERY fast and had 200 days retention, like now does.

  30.5.2008 08:08 #8

• mspurloc

  Have they annexed the Sudetenland yet?

  30.5.2008 11:58 #9

• varnull

  Do you mean back in the free days... when the best internet people had was 16k analog dialup? Times have changed, and last week we connected a wireless hacked undernet all the way from Liverpool to Newcastle with speeds approaching 8Mbps totally free and with permission from around 10% of the connections.. the days of the isp and government spying and control are coming to an end!!
  
  These newsgroups are the haunts of the proper criminals... people who distribute the kinds of things you deserve to be jailed for in some cases... and the people charging for access to what the users provide are no different... The only questions raised really are the same ones the isp's are trying to hide behind.. NET NEUTRALITY!.. so an anti/takedown result will be bad for everybody.
  
  MPAA territory is everywhere EXCEPT ... Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Italy (??) Indonesia, Russia and Antigua (and my house of course.. a Welsh enclave in a sea of ignorant northerners.. 900 years and still not forgotten that military occupation.. take note bush and brown!!)..there are other undecideds.. burundi, uganda, somalia, liberia spring to mind.. even China surrendered when pushed... damn.. don't you just wish the japs had succeeded with those small hot air balloon bombs?? We wouldn't have to put up with all this hollywood tripe and could enjoy our tentacle porn in peace, with higher production values.. .
  
  One thing to remember.. the yanks haven't got a very good track record of winning wars on their own.. I can't think of one offhand that they won without outside help (apart from the war of independence... and we didn't want them anyway.. whining a$$hats.. didn't the French help out with that??) So as soon as their economy collapses completely (3 years at most) we will be able to get on with building a better world... just so long as we are prepared to exterminate all the usa fanboys who call themselves our leaders.
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... #1 image again.. check it out ;)

  30.5.2008 12:01 #10

• bomber991

  If the MPAA doesn't stop this I think someone out there is gonna go on a shooting spree, taking out Glickman and other MPAA nazis. Stupid terrorists, where are they when you need them?

  30.5.2008 12:22 #11

• varnull

  Plotting the next big "outrage" with the US arms manufacturers.
  
  edit removed the ?.. it's a statement not a question ;)
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... #1 image again.. check it out ;)

  30.5.2008 12:24 #12

• emugamer

  Originally posted by Blackjax: di di di dii dii di dii dii di di........
  
  ticker paper rolls out of the machine and reads:
  
  News flash Everyone in the world who uses a toilet receives letter from mpaa telling them to cease and desist. Claims made that everyone is infringing upon what their clients have benn producing for some years now.ROFL!

  30.5.2008 12:40 #13

• ZippyDSM

  there is a diffrance here people forget USENET and newsgroups are 2 different things, sure USENET started out as a normal newsgroup but moved to a subscription based service to meet demand and decided to go full tilt into proffering like some private trackers, it is a antaquited business mode and it dose need to be dealt with because trackers generally don't distro kiddy porn and what not.... hell I stoped using newgroups for hentai because of the Gdamn kiddyporn or jsut mass spam porn.....
  
  I found a nice lil forum for hentai and go there once in a blue moon for a fix..... and yes I am just crazy enough to hate normal porn :P

  30.5.2008 12:47 #14

• varnull

  hey Zippy... so the name "wurmknight" means something to you as well ;)
  
  /me says nothing about javdownloads.com .. hehehehehehe that must be worth a couple of days ;) lets see...
  
  meanwhile... from a basement somewhere in Geneva.. who the hell needs newsgroups
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... #1 image again.. check it out ;)

  30.5.2008 14:07 #15

• ZippyDSM

  Originally posted by varnull: hey Zippy... so the name "wurmknight" means something to you as well ;)
  
  /me says nothing about javdownloads.com .. hehehehehehe that must be worth a couple of days ;) lets see...
  
  meanwhile... from a basement somewhere in Geneva.. who the hell needs newsgroupsEither you are giving me a pet name,saying you were looking for hentai or.... :P
  
  *looks at link*
  Mmm not to bad, sexy posing beats porn EVERY TIME =^0^=
  

  For all the console/game fanboys out their.
  http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles...Console-Rundown
  Oh god I can't stop laughing!!!
  ---
  And for the format nazi's I bring you HHD DVVD BVD's!!
  

  30.5.2008 14:15 #16

• varnull

  It does it does ;)
  
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... #1 image again.. check it out ;)

  30.5.2008 15:25 #17

• ZippyDSM

  Originally posted by varnull: It does it does ;)yay*POUNCE* ^^
  

  For all the console/game fanboys out their.
  http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles...Console-Rundown
  Oh god I can't stop laughing!!!
  ---
  And for the format nazi's I bring you HHD DVVD BVD's!!
  

  30.5.2008 15:28 #18

• homesick

  i am a member of newzbin, and i think it is bs. if you go there no one does anything wrong. nothing piracy related is talked about or anything. it is just an indexing site guys come on! give me a break! they arnt providing the files. they are just a secetary to organize them! the mpaa can kiss my a$$.
  

  
  

  30.5.2008 23:55 #19

• paravis

  Donnie: In that case, the the makers of cdrom drives, google (HUGE OFFENDER), printers, Microsoft, etc etc
  
  that is.. if you think Newzbin falls into that. Which they obviously DO NOT.
  
  I don't know if people realize this, but there are items on usenet / newsgroups that are freely available to the public. Not only that, almost every single ISP (at least here in the US) gives customers free access to newsgroups, both binary and text.

  31.5.2008 15:58 #20

• paravis

  Originally posted by JOHNSTARR: Where do you think all the top torrent sites get 99% of there things from? Hmmmm newsgroups
  
  That will definitely hinder the chain of command for awhileNope. That's not true. Torrents have far more data than newsgroups do, so there is a great deal of material that is not coming from usenet originally. I'd say the 1st place stuff like this is coming from, is a purchase or a leak from movie studios / record companies (yes, their employees FUEL ADVANCE RELEASE PIRACY), then FTP, then IRC bots, then Torrents and perhaps newsgroups.
  
  And just FYI, newzbin .com is one of hundreds of sites that index newsgroups and allow searching (google being one of those). They are NOT newsgroups. So taking down newzbin, will not affect newsgroups in any way.
  
  Also, usenet is maintained by thousands of Internet Service Providers. Is the MPAA going to sue the internet? That's what the end result they are going for based on what they're doing.

  31.5.2008 16:09 #21

• mspurloc

  Sorry, but there are so many historical inaccuracies in this post, it would take too long to correct them.
  
  And I take it you're not the same varnull who said, "Which is why I either pirate everything...?"
  
  Originally posted by varnull:
  These newsgroups are the haunts of the proper criminals... people who distribute the kinds of things you deserve to be jailed for in some cases... and the people charging for access to what the users provide are no different... The only questions raised really are the same ones the isp's are trying to hide behind.. NET NEUTRALITY!.. so an anti/takedown result will be bad for everybody.
  
  MPAA territory is everywhere EXCEPT ... Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Italy (??) Indonesia, Russia and Antigua (and my house of course.. a Welsh enclave in a sea of ignorant northerners.. 900 years and still not forgotten that military occupation.. take note bush and brown!!)..there are other undecideds.. burundi, uganda, somalia, liberia spring to mind.. even China surrendered when pushed... damn.. don't you just wish the japs had succeeded with those small hot air balloon bombs?? We wouldn't have to put up with all this hollywood tripe and could enjoy our tentacle porn in peace, with higher production values.. .
  
  One thing to remember.. the yanks haven't got a very good track record of winning wars on their own.. I can't think of one offhand that they won without outside help (apart from the war of independence... and we didn't want them anyway.. whining a$$hats.. didn't the French help out with that??) So as soon as their economy collapses completely (3 years at most) we will be able to get on with building a better world... just so long as we are prepared to exterminate all the usa fanboys who call themselves our leaders.

  31.5.2008 21:58 #22

• Mez

  smokyrain, why should they stop? Media sharing is killing the music industry. Granted, they started a war they can not win. They could have embrased the new technology and made a profit selling good music at a good price. Now the genie is out of the bottle and has been growing for many years and is too big to go away now and is still growing all the time. Much of their attacks have been mean spirited. They are losing support in many areas.

  3.6.2008 08:47 #23

• ZippyDSM

  Originally posted by Mez: smokyrain, why should they stop? Media sharing is killing the music industry. Granted, they started a war they can not win. They could have embrased the new technology and made a profit selling good music at a good price. Now the genie is out of the bottle and has been growing for many years and is too big to go away now and is still growing all the time. Much of their attacks have been mean spirited. They are losing support in many areas.shearing is killing NOTHING much less harming it to the point of near death, there own poor business practices are doing far more damage than anything else and this a media wide issue, you are never going to sell to people who do not want to deal with retail and its loathsome aspects, altho you are goign to pick up larger numbers of people just downloading because its there they are still full blown consumers.
  
  the media industry is a mess they need to overhaul the way they do business treating the consumer like children and thieves is no the way to do it.

  3.6.2008 08:52 #24

• Mez

  I don't know, ZippyDSM, I think even a mild abuser set up for file sharing who used to buy 5-10 CDs a year will shop first on the file share and down load it when a new album is released from their favorite artist. Not only do they save money but that save time as well. Every one knows losing sales is bad for buisiness.
  
  I do agree starting a war with their customers was not a smart move. I believe they distroyed the music industry. If the industry was strong they would not have to rely on selling 20 - 30 year old tunes to stay afloat. I believe they are now distroying the sale of all music in such a way it will never come back. I will not buy new music and will resist ever buying anything from them again. This is because I loath them and want them to crumble to dust! I bet I am not the only one that feels this way. I bet there are millions of would be customers that feel this way. Don't you think this is a huge problem for them? I do buy used CDs and vinyl. I don't mind spending money. I just mind giving THEM any money. I even buy lossless and high quality lossy formats on the web. THEY do not sell high quality music on the web so I know THEY are not getting any of that money.
  
  My questions to you are:
  1) Don't you think many people shop music sharing before they descide to go to a store to buy a music CD?
  2) If many people opt to borrow the music instead of buying music won't that effect their business?
  
  I think it will eventually kill that business in the end. I think that even if they agree to sell HiFi music at a fair price that will not attract enough cash to keep them afloat.
  
  What you you think ZippDSM?

  5.6.2008 08:48 #25

• skopas

  THis again is old skool with this Grinch Institution. Because they have the funds and support of many corporate idiots, they will continue to suffocate P2P, Torrent, ...Usenet...etc. I use Usenet, I pay a cheap fee and enjoy the latest release's. I luve it and it rocks. Heck I even use Torrent from time to time and have a rapidshare account for smaller things. I still support and buy my games from time to time. As for music it's just a habit that was developed back then in 98' or so. WHen peeps found ways to post and we could get it for free. It made complete sense, when say The Eagles cd came out for $18.00 retail and I only cared for 1 or 2 songs. WHo was ripping who off...for the longest????? The internet Pirates found a way to counter balance that situation. Thats where we still stand today. I worked at Staples and I remember selling Windoz XP retail ed for $300.00 bucks....damn. Again who is ripping who..???
  XP is great, no doubt but c'mon make the price approachable.

  29.10.2008 12:11 #26

• ZippyDSM

  Originally posted by Mez: I don't know, ZippyDSM, I think even a mild abuser set up for file sharing who used to buy 5-10 CDs a year will shop first on the file share and down load it when a new album is released from their favorite artist. Not only do they save money but that save time as well. Every one knows losing sales is bad for buisiness.
  
  I do agree starting a war with their customers was not a smart move. I believe they distroyed the music industry. If the industry was strong they would not have to rely on selling 20 - 30 year old tunes to stay afloat. I believe they are now distroying the sale of all music in such a way it will never come back. I will not buy new music and will resist ever buying anything from them again. This is because I loath them and want them to crumble to dust! I bet I am not the only one that feels this way. I bet there are millions of would be customers that feel this way. Don't you think this is a huge problem for them? I do buy used CDs and vinyl. I don't mind spending money. I just mind giving THEM any money. I even buy lossless and high quality lossy formats on the web. THEY do not sell high quality music on the web so I know THEY are not getting any of that money.
  
  My questions to you are:
  1) Don't you think many people shop music sharing before they descide to go to a store to buy a music CD?
  2) If many people opt to borrow the music instead of buying music won't that effect their business?
  
  I think it will eventually kill that business in the end. I think that even if they agree to sell HiFi music at a fair price that will not attract enough cash to keep them afloat.
  
  What you you think ZippDSM?
  ACK!! jsut saw this >>
  
  
  Depends on the quality of the music and price, if they sell CDs at a price range of 6-10$ and no more than that the music industry would be making a nice profit still but they want to sell them for twice as much and the stores almost have to tact on 1-4$ damning the whole process.
  
  If you sold it cheap to where the stores could make a small profit off sells to stay in business the gears of business are greased you bloat the price you cause stagnation and decay because nothing can move.

  29.10.2008 12:41 #27

• Mez

  I am embarrassed to say I bought a few CDs this month in that price range. Lets keep that between you and me!
  
  Price IS everything. I am cheap as opposed to strapped for money. I will not think to buy something I want at the right price. That goes for most anything under a grand, well maybe only $500. If I want it and I figure I will not see it at that price for a long time, I reach for my wallet in a reflex action.
  
  What makes my blood boil is seeing a real old album I bought for $2.50 sell for 10 times that now. We know the artist made a onetime agreement back then. The artist’s royalties are fixed. The industry probably only made .25 cents on that album then. Why do they need to make $10 now? They have gotten used to doubling the price as the media got cheaper to produce. When they used to be happy with 10% now they want 90% of the sale price of the low fidelity DRMed tune.
  
  STD retail mark up is over 50%. They are hoping for a 50% profit over the life of the product. That is where all the costs are. I do not blame retail. I think they need to make that much if they are to stay alive. It probably costs $.25 to make the CD and $1 by the time you pay management, etc. The music industry gets the rest for the least investemnt.
  
  It is so refreshing to chat with a sentient being! I actually lost it the other day when a clueless bozo tried to give me some tech advice in a condescending tone. I freely admit not being the most technical guy in AD and not the sharpest axe in the shed but I am pretty technical and pretty smart even for AD. I just went ballistic. It was obvious to me the guy did not fully understand the discussion and did not like my position. He figured he would take a bite out of old Mez. I enjoy a difference of an opinion but I don’t like being spoken down to by a dope. I don’t even mind much getting blasted as long as it is logical or I was talking junk. If I was talking junk, I feel the need to apologize. That keeps me from running at the mouth too much.
  
  Have a good one!

  29.10.2008 14:04 #28

• ZippyDSM

  Originally posted by Mez: I am embarrassed to say I bought a few CDs this month in that price range. Lets keep that between you and me!
  
  Price IS everything. I am cheap as opposed to strapped for money. I will not think to buy something I want at the right price. That goes for most anything under a grand, well maybe only $500. If I want it and I figure I will not see it at that price for a long time, I reach for my wallet in a reflex action.
  
  What makes my blood boil is seeing a real old album I bought for $2.50 sell for 10 times that now. We know the artist made a onetime agreement back then. The artist’s royalties are fixed. The industry probably only made .25 cents on that album then. Why do they need to make $10 now? They have gotten used to doubling the price as the media got cheaper to produce. When they used to be happy with 10% now they want 90% of the sale price of the low fidelity DRMed tune.
  
  STD retail mark up is over 50%. They are hoping for a 50% profit over the life of the product. That is where all the costs are. I do not blame retail. I think they need to make that much if they are to stay alive. It probably costs $.25 to make the CD and $1 by the time you pay management, etc. The music industry gets the rest for the least investemnt.
  
  It is so refreshing to chat with a sentient being! I actually lost it the other day when a clueless bozo tried to give me some tech advice in a condescending tone. I freely admit not being the most technical guy in AD and not the sharpest axe in the shed but I am pretty technical and pretty smart even for AD. I just went ballistic. It was obvious to me the guy did not fully understand the discussion and did not like my position. He figured he would take a bite out of old Mez. I enjoy a difference of an opinion but I don’t like being spoken down to by a dope. I don’t even mind much getting blasted as long as it is logical or I was talking junk. If I was talking junk, I feel the need to apologize. That keeps me from running at the mouth too much.
  
  Have a good one!The whole world is about artificial profit, its not just the media industry look at the finical industry trying to inflate the worth of property and stock its caused a trillion dollar collapse world wide and everyone keeps trying to put the Gdamn thing on life support instead of letting the bad parts fall off and saving what can be saved. I still think giving the money tot eh populace in 50-200ish K checks would have been better since most people could buy their way out letting business reorganize to handle that influx of money but know lets bailout the crooks that raped the system....

  29.10.2008 14:14 #29

• martin280

  I love usenet. I do not use newzbin though. Better than downloading on torrents, they can max out my speed whereas a torrent has never done that.
  

  SGC Special Ops
  http://stargate.mgm.com/specialops/link.php?urlid=28&id=7871
  http://stargate.mgm.com/specialops/link.php?urlid=29&id=7871

  29.10.2008 17:09 #30

• Mez

  I was and still am big on the bail out done smart. However, because the bankers even out spent the anti-piracy groups in supporting the elected officials. The bail out was a boon doggle only made to rape the US. They should only pay 50 cents on the dollar or less. I agree the money should have been a second loan to the homeowners but 40 cents on the dollar would show a profit eventually.
  
  The world is ruled by the worst kind of whores these days. When things are this croupt we are in danger of something really bad happening. I was talking to a brother-in-law's parents. They had been old Republicans. Now they are just white haired radicals. They claimed things are so bad only a violent march on DC could save the country. One thing is clear for 10 grand our elected official will do anything.

  30.10.2008 09:18 #31

• ZippyDSM

  Originally posted by Mez: I was and still am big on the bail out done smart. However, because the bankers even out spent the anti-piracy groups in supporting the elected officials. The bail out was a boon doggle only made to rape the US. They should only pay 50 cents on the dollar or less. I agree the money should have been a second loan to the homeowners but 40 cents on the dollar would show a profit eventually.
  
  The world is ruled by the worst kind of whores these days. When things are this croupt we are in danger of something really bad happening. I was talking to a brother-in-law's parents. They had been old Republicans. Now they are just white haired radicals. They claimed things are so bad only a violent march on DC could save the country. One thing is clear for 10 grand our elected official will do anything.The bailout might have worked if we had something called oversight in government/business but because we lack it trickle down economics in any form is a joke because they think that the rich will spend money within the US just because they feel like it.... no the rich are rich because they spend money at a minimum highly efficiently they are not going to waste money in the US if it dose not return a ton of investment.
  
  So in fact if you want smaller regulation you'll have to focus on trickle up models putting money into the hands of the masses so that money will trickle up pooling and bringing in investors to localities since the rich are smart people and like making money they will gravitate to where profit can be made.

  30.10.2008 13:42 #32

• Mez

  I am don't think the problem is trickle up or trickle down. I don't care if the persons making over 200,000 get taxed harder but I am sure that will not help much. I think we have allowed way too many blood suckers sucking out the life forces of the echonomy. That is the real problem. 2 years ago both P hopefuls voted to take away 200,000 more peofessional jobs from Americans. They are only worried about the voters on an election year. After that it is business as usual. Screw the US as hard as you can, for money. The real problem with having aliens do our work is a good bit of their wages go over seas to stay.
  
  We buy our goods over seas, our companies do the manufactoring over seas. Then they are surprized when those countries start producing those goods on there own.
  
  Even tech support is now overseas.
  
  Our transportation is 20% less efficient now than in the Carter era. Yet the person in the street thinks the oil shortage is contrived.
  
  With all this money leaving the US how can our echonomy be healthy?
  
  Who is going to buy all those Chinese goods when we are all out of work?

  31.10.2008 07:52 #33

• ZippyDSM

  Originally posted by Mez: I am don't think the problem is trickle up or trickle down. I don't care if the persons making over 200,000 get taxed harder but I am sure that will not help much. I think we have allowed way too many blood suckers sucking out the life forces of the echonomy. That is the real problem. 2 years ago both P hopefuls voted to take away 200,000 more peofessional jobs from Americans. They are only worried about the voters on an election year. After that it is business as usual. Screw the US as hard as you can, for money. The real problem with having aliens do our work is a good bit of their wages go over seas to stay.
  
  We buy our goods over seas, our companies do the manufactoring over seas. Then they are surprized when those countries start producing those goods on there own.
  
  Even tech support is now overseas.
  
  Our transportation is 20% less efficient now than in the Carter era. Yet the person in the street thinks the oil shortage is contrived.
  
  With all this money leaving the US how can our echonomy be healthy?
  
  Who is going to buy all those Chinese goods when we are all out of work?Mind you I am talking broader perspective on what Gov and its crooks do to focus well...everything the reapers/neo cons(fake conservatives) focus solely on giving as much as they can think of to the higher end of spectrum, of course lets face it all the crooks in gov give as much as they can to their masters and buds.
  
  Let me try and save my train of thought "current" criminals...er...politics/politicians lean to give money without restriction to the upper half of society as means to initiate greasing in random sectors the trouble is with no rules they go and *bleep* off shore and grease their own interests that do nothing for the nation. If you want to "grease" with a minimum of management focus on the 40% thats in the middle of society, they buy the most they work the most they as a whole will pay the most.
  
  I'll agree the rich might pay to much in tax and that corporations are taxed badly, what we need is a fair tax system that bases taxes on what you buy reducing paper work to people that generate profit.
  
  
  IE you rent land/property 20% of that is taxable, you buy it 20% of it is taxable you bring in X amount 20$ of that is taxable no more loop holes no more refunds you reduce the size of the IRS so much between it and and taxing profit you get enough money to screw up things as much as you ever have....
  
  The US is *bleep* because there is no movement to create a middle class job base since they let manufacturing run out of the basement untrained...when gov decided to let profit in a unprotected sudo free market wank off as much as it could it went blind and we have lost our jobs base and are on life support I am surprised we can wage a conflict of any kind..but then again we are running on credit....
  
  Another off shoot if you will of blind for profit *bleep* is the uncompherisable sudo free market that has created a artificial finical industry bubble the size of the industry itself, with the rush to make money from nothing(from stocks and what not) with lil rule or reason forces government to bail out the system because they hit the artificial ceiling and need it raised.... its insanity...
  
  
  

  31.10.2008 08:19 #34

• Mez

  Even though we agree about 90% lets focus on the 10%.
  
  I am sure extra taxation will not help. Even smart taxation removes money from our dying echonomy. If you tax business more business will become more unprofitable. You might be able to tax the very rich more. They inverst that money. I am not sure how killing the stock market will efect our echonomy. I do know if you turn the IRAs and 401Ks into sht the US will not be able to help anyone with retirement. Unfortunatly there are not all that many filthy rich persons. You will not get much money unless you tax the hell out of them. Then they will change citizinship. They can still live here. They will just pay their taxes to some other country. That happens all the time.
  
  There might be some huge problems with more taxation than what we are already trying to do. What that Bozo Obama doesn't know is there already is a millionares tax from the Regan era that cuts in at about 200K. If you hit that level you can't deduct anything not even taxes. Each year the bottom limit dropps. No one ever changed the law it will probably hit 130 next year. The bigger bozo never called him out on that one. This year the millionare tax was supposed to drop down to 140K this year but they put it off for this year. It is still around 200K. In my county where a new town house runs 300K the middle class averages at 100K. You can't live in my county and make 50K. Wet backs live in house where a family lives in a room. The apt is county paid. You need to be making near 100K to live in apt if you have some kids. You either have to be on welfware or be making at least 70K just to exist. People forget some areas are real expensive just to live. Unfortunatly I live in the top 1% most expensive counties in the US.
  
  Energy costs are killing me. I have been spending money re-tooling the house after I got a K electric bill for a month. We have a heat pump. They get expensive when the temp gets below 30.
  
  I had an interesting talk with my son a while back which sums up our echnonmic problems. I explaineded I made $5 an hour when I was old enough to drive. That was equivelent to $10/hr now. He said I was full of it. That couldn't be right. Gas was $.3/gal everything else was way cheap. I explained that WAS the problem. Wages have gone up way slower than expensis. No one has money to spend on all the extras. We still spend but more and more has to be reserved to necessities.
  
  A movement to create middle class jobs is pointless unless they were making necessities or something so wonderful people will be willing to give up necessities to buy it. The third world will not buy our goods even if they are great. Creating new energy could employ some but because we expect so much from our employers manpower is too expensive. Nationalize health care would solve that problem. However, how will we pay for it?
  
  The government as worked hard to stop our wages from keeping up with inflation. If a sector shows improvements in wages the government opens the flood gates to let more aliens work in that market. The crooks claim that keeps us competive. Maybe they are right. It is probably better to work for less than not at all.
  
  This is the real problem. The US has taken out a second mortgage because we lost our good paying job and we do not want to give up our life style. Now our house is worth less and we still have no good job prospects so the are looking to borrow more so we can live even better. At least we want people who do not make enough to afford a descent life style get one anyway. That is is more fair in a sence but it will also mean those that were barly making it will not when the sht hits the fan. That will happen within the next 4 years. All the money money borrowed will make the dollar less valuable. They will need to raise interest rates to feed the loans. That will be when the sh1t hits the fan!! We will be in a world of hurt. The loans will not be affordable so employment will suffer. We will be back in double digit unempoyment and inflation at the same time. They last time that happend we were all fat and happy. We just needed to tighten out belts. Now we hocked our belts to pay for a HD TV.

  31.10.2008 10:30 #35