AfterDawn: News

Windows 7 is anti-competitive, says Opera, Firefox

Both Mozilla and Opera have now criticized Microsoft over the upcoming Windows 7 operating system, claiming there are a few settings that make the OS anti-competitive.

The browser companies say that users who "opt to upgrade to Windows 7 from Vista rather than install fresh are given an "express" option that automatically reverts the default browser to Internet Explorer even if Firefox, Opera or another browser was set as the default before."



There is a "custom" option that lets users keep their browser settings, but Mozilla and Opera say Microsoft is hoping users will be unaware of the custom setting, or will consider it too much extra work.

"Our initial review suggests this is a blatant use of the Windows operating system to change the market dynamics of browser usage," Mozilla chairman Mitchell Baker adds.

Opera CTO Hakon Wium Lie agreed with Baker and believes the "express" option is a "problem."

Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 7 May 2009 21:19

• Previous article

• Hulu going international soon

• Next article

• Android 1.5 headed to US next week

• 47 comments

• tatsh

  I'm not surprised. This is BS but I know no one is going to complain, because 90% of the Windows user base is completely blind, doesn't care, or will 'workaround' which means if they hit Express or whatever, they will manually reset their browser, so-called 'power users'.

  7.5.2009 21:51 #1

• ROMaster2

  Nice trolling tatsh, 8/10

  7.5.2009 21:55 #2

• fgamer

  OK, need I remind you complainers and whiners like Mozilla and Opera that this OS is made by Microsoft. Let them do whatever they wan't with it. The customers of course have the choice to purchase a copy of Windows 7 or not...it's the simple for the love of god. If I was making my own Operating System you better be damn sure I'd put my product as priority over all others.

  7.5.2009 22:13 #3

• Amak

  If only it were that simple, fgamer. Too bad many are scared to venture beyond IE and try something new (and better)

  7.5.2009 23:05 #4

• xnonsuchx

  I'm all for Firefox over IE, but I think this complaint is a little overboard. It's kinda standard when installing a major OS upgrade over an earlier version to reset some settings back to OS defaults to avoid possible complications. Of course, I would never install an UPGRADE version of Windows over an old one anyway...CLEAN INSTALL only for me, thanks!
  
  Anyway, most people using Firefox probably purposely installed it and set it as the default anyway, so I think most users will be able to revert back to Firefox, even as ignorant as most are.

  7.5.2009 23:35 #5

• gallagher

  Firefox is my standard browser as well, but if a person is too stupid or lazy to install it, then that should not be Microsoft;s fault.
  
  The only problems I can understand, although I disagree with the concept that MS is wrong for monopolizing since it is their product (if you like it, buy it; otherwise shut up and use something else), is when a company restricts a user from using a competitor's product. This is not the case. There are many browsers a person can use and there are many media players a person can use. If you do not like the default by Microsoft, install your own. Oh no, not effort . . .
  
  This is not the case. It's like suing McDonald's for only serving Coke products or Taco Bell for only serving Pepsi products. Guess what? They have deals. If you have a better one and can make them more money, they will hop on board fast.

  8.5.2009 00:02 #6

• KillerBug

  This is total BS...Windows 7 is the first Microsoft operating system since windows 98OSR1 that allows you to uninstall internet explorer. Yes, it comes with internet explorer 8, but can you imagine the uproar if Windows did not come with Internet Explorer? They might as well complain that it comes with a file explorer, clock, and disk management tools.
  
  Granted, the improvements to media center might make other media center apps obsolite (I have stopped using MediaPortal in favor of the new Windows 7 Media Center App). Other improvements will probably make other after market applications worthless, even if they are free...but this is a good thing. It means that microsoft is finaly writing software that is better (or at least as good) as what you can get for free!

  8.5.2009 00:23 #7

• EricCarr

  If M$ had their way, Firefox or Opera would not be able to install on Widows 7. If you are to lazy to download and install it again. You should stay with the crappy IE.

  8.5.2009 02:13 #8

• KillerBug

  Originally posted by EricCarr: If M$ had their way, Firefox or Opera would not be able to install on Widows 7.That's just not true. I am usualy the first to rip M$ a new one, but this is just insane. The fact is that Windows is compatable with more 3rd party software than any other operating system, including Linux. This is their main strength since Linux got a GUI, and they would not risk loosing this. The fact is that the last thing they want is more software that only runs on Linux.

  8.5.2009 06:07 #9

• creaky

  (Like in any other OS) i don't see the issue. I tend to use Opera as my main browser, sometimes Firefox (and in Linux i use a load of different browsers, but i digress). I've still got IE8 on here (W7 RC1) and i even installed Google Chrome just to see what the fuss was all about. But Opera works perfectly so i stick with that. I've certainly not had any problems (yet) with Opera being ousted from being the main browser. Even if it did happen, i'd either put Opera back as main, and/or find a workaround on the net to stop it happening. Simple.
  
  edited for spelling goof
  

  
  
  Forum Rules ~ http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487 / Xbox softmodding software ~ http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/557450
  
  Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
  Network ~ 2 node DD-WRT (v23 sp2) WDS over WPA2 comprising: Buffalo - 2x WHR-G54Ss. Plus 2 adhoc nodes comprising Linksys - WRT54G v5 & WRT54G v2
  

  8.5.2009 06:47 #10

• jab1981

  Whoa guys. While it's always nice to appreciate some nerd enthusiasm, some of you need to take a step back.
  
  I know in the internet world, browser market share is something to lose sleep about. And I know in that setting it seems like this is a huge ordeal and "90% of the Windows user base is completely blind". But the simple fact is to 95% of the people out there using the internet, the browser they use really doesn't matter at all. For the majority of browsers out there, they could get by viewing the web on a cell phone. They don't want or need any of the benefits of Firefox, and from my experience trying to force them into these features only scares them even further into IE. For those of us who do want/need the features of Firefox, we all know about it and that's why we use it. IE is a better than average browser that's entirely capable for the rest of the folks. If people want more they can find it on their own.

  8.5.2009 07:19 #11

• ak472009

  i totally agree that average user are not aware of to modify settings , anyway who wants to use IE it is totally garbage , day i started to use firefox i will never revert to IE

  8.5.2009 07:35 #12

• WrecKer1

  Windows Xp is all I need, MS just dont get it.
  if its not broke dont fix it...
  windows 7 is a Inbread of Vista..
  Lets see what happens with Win 7 ?

  8.5.2009 07:47 #13

• irongiant

  Ok Whats the big deal, i use firefox and i just upgrated to win 7 is not like you have to alot of work to revert Firefox to be the default browser, to honest, explorer 8 is far more faster than firefox, i keep firefox because there are settings on firefox that IE doesn't support if not i will switch entirely, and after reading how big Babies Firefox and opera are i think i might go IE entirely.

  8.5.2009 08:49 #14

• DOUBLE_DD

  can the argument not also be turned around and fired back at firefox ect? they wanting preference in someone elses work? this is great o no this is great i think its simple case of what your used too but competition is good means we not all hearded like bunch of cattle to there approved big paying punters sites, but if you can switch on easy to change default browsers and if you realy stupid just uninstall browser you want to use then reinstall and will ask if you want to set as default browser or even better---
  why dont the moaners release an update of there browsers straight after that asks to be set to default straight after end of fuss,,,again bunch of money grabbing ratbags trying to rouse us rable to help line there pockets end of day i still prefer xp especially for a lot of programers i need to use......

  8.5.2009 09:00 #15

• Mez

  M$ is betting on a large portion of the persons the buy their product will be morons. I think that is a solid bet. I am not going to lose sleep over the fact that not everyone that buys 7 has the brains enough to install a browser they like to use.

  8.5.2009 09:14 #16

• bomber991

  Guys, this is bad. Real bad. I'm reading all these comments and basically what everyone is saying is this, "Hey Microsoft, let me bend over, grab my ankles, and think of a happy place while you make everyone try out your new IE8."
  
  It's easy to see why Opera and FF are worried. If they've only got about 10% market share to begin with, and all 10% automatically gets switched over to IE8, there's a good chance their market share could drop to 8 or 7%. I mean, not everyone using firefox or opera is using it because they know how superior it is. Us nerds have some normal friends and we talk them into using alternative browsers. They don't know how to install it so we help them do it. They like it better and such. Then they upgrade to windows7 doing express mode since custom mode is only meant for computer experts. They click the internet button and IE8 pops up. It kind of looks the same as opera and FF, so they just assume it is Opera of FF and that it looks different for the new windows7, and that's it. They don't know where to go or how to install an alternative browser.
  
  Now going from 10% to 7%, that's a 30% drop in users of your product if you're FF or Opera. Can't you guys see why they don't like this? And remember if it wasn't for FF and Opera, we'd still be using IE6. STILL!!!! THE HORROR!!!!

  8.5.2009 10:07 #17

• DOUBLE_DD

  so basicaly what you saying is they will get 7% of the money instead of 10%, there all buisness that are private which beggers the question why should we care? realy? so others gotta earn there 10% if i was ms id be looking to stamp all over them and visa versa.
  
  theres no argument just they trying to get bit of free advertising and news time to try probably increase there 10% as if you find your way to different browser before as windows does not come with anything else installed any way sure you will find way back again??? simple! or as i said earlier uninstall reinstall browser god its not rocket science and if you cant do that you cant work pc anyway.
  another fantastic money generator and free reverse spin advertising with gloom and doom ms are taking over...o right 90% share must mean 90% are mugs? i disagree,,,i also find most browsers work fine same with ie

  8.5.2009 10:35 #18

• SProdigy

  Originally posted by xnonsuchx: I'm all for Firefox over IE, but I think this complaint is a little overboard. It's kinda standard when installing a major OS upgrade over an earlier version to reset some settings back to OS defaults to avoid possible complications. Of course, I would never install an UPGRADE version of Windows over an old one anyway...CLEAN INSTALL only for me, thanks!
  
  Anyway, most people using Firefox probably purposely installed it and set it as the default anyway, so I think most users will be able to revert back to Firefox, even as ignorant as most are.100% agree with your post!

  8.5.2009 11:46 #19

• SProdigy

  Also funny, because if you "upgrade" Mac OSX, Safari is the default browser...

  8.5.2009 11:47 #20

• inagasake

  So as long as I can continue to use Firefox, VLC and other open-source software in Windows, I don't care. I don't even have Firefox set as my default browser since whenever someone wants to borrow my comp, they prefer to use IE anyway but I still use Firefox and it's of no hassle to me. Except when someone sends me a link on IM. I try to use open-source software as much as possible but there's no way I'm going to use Linux if I can't use all the software I need. In my classes, some of the required software will only run in Windows and if you are into PC gaming, you probably can't go without Windows.

  8.5.2009 11:53 #21

• WrecKer1

  IE 8 is not bad its a little slower because of security and phising
  but IE 6 was the fastest, If you use a good security Suite like mcafee tottal protection or nortons 360 v2 you dont even need the updates and ofcoure a good router as a firewall I recomend the Dlink
  DGL 4300 gamers lounge...
  with 7 computers on my network I never had a bit of trouble running windows Xp, even when Comcast had problems and came out to fix it , they said they could not see past my modem, what kind of router are you using....and I dont allow ping to wan port or multicast, and I can join or host any game I want to. I run a desert combat server now and then no problems...........WrecK

  8.5.2009 12:09 #22

• ZippyDSM

  If it can port over settings from oth4r non MS programs...then there is a problem as they conveniently forget to do it for browsers...

  8.5.2009 14:55 #23

• greatmj

  I read some of the responses and it changed what i was going to say originally. But i am happy i read those.
  
  Here's what i think. Yes, MS is being a retard by doing this. If you're letting the user perform an upgrade rather than a complete installation of the (crappy) OS, why the heck would you change something the user hasn't asked for? It just shows how much they're scared of the world. Although, i think @fgamer is right. Wouldn't you like to publicize your own product with your new OS a bit? Maybe the user hasn't ever used the IE they are supplying and maybe(though i cant imagine this happening) he'll find it easier and better than Opera/Firefox. Of course that's just a rare possibility but it's still there.
  
  However, its true that all non-IE users on Windows had to download the alternate browser they wanted first. So even now they won't give a damn about IE and simply set firefox opera or any other favorite back to the default browser its just that easy. Most browser have this check on startup for default or whatever option anyway.
  
  When i have to work on a different computer for more than an hour or so, i always try to install firefox if its not there already. So frankly i dont care.
  (@KillerBug I couldnt help but say this... what you have said is analogous to McDonalds selling some combo they want to with the burger have ordered instead of just the burger itself. It has happened to me before.)

  8.5.2009 16:35 #24

• greatmj

  Originally posted by SProdigy: Also funny, because if you "upgrade" Mac OSX, Safari is the default browser...
  HAHA! Thats funny! Im not a Mac user so i didnt know that. But its funny. The whole world has fun pointing out only what MS does wrong. I have stopped using MS but i cant say i hate it. After all, Windows is what i have used for the major part of my life on computers. Its just that its been a lot easier with FOSS and i love freedom!

  8.5.2009 16:39 #25

• varnull

  Nobody has got the point of the article at all..
  
  Remember the anti-trust rulings over WMP in Europe.. M$ were forced to release a version of XP (Xtreme-Piles?) with it stripped out.. and oddly I wondered at the time why IE wasn't bundled in the exact sale anti-competition ruling..
  
  Bundled "compulsory" software is against the standing business and trading agreements.. I wish the Euro zone governments would grow some testicles and demand the removal of all the bundled and compulsory to use crap from M$ systems.. or it can't be sold anywhere in the trading zone.. same goes for crapple.. another great anti-consumer organisation.
  
  For the few retards who think IE8 is great.. it shares the same basic flaw EVEY other version of IE has.. it's your file manager.. and has total system access.. is it a good idea exposing the main (only) file read/write/add/delete application out into a place where everybody knows exactly how to exploit it?.. ih yeah.. M$ have a solution for that as well.. their own anti-competition "security solution" .. theres a freakin laugh too.. BUILD A SECURE OS.. and you don't need crap like that in the first place.
  
  vista sp3 is a joke.. and thousands of people are lapping it up.. reporting bugs and helping M$ screw them over with outmoded expensive and obsolete badly written patched and overpatched crap .. one day the sheeple will learn.. probably when it's win12 or 13 .. all built on this same old junk they have been peddling for the last 15 years.
  
  oh yeah.. and proper industry reports.. total number of computers worldwide vs number running M$ software.. closer to 50/50.
  
  *nix systems tend to be quietly doing the real grunt behind your internet.. your atm.. your dvb .. your standalone dvd player .. your phone network.. the thing that pays your wages or welfare.. your hospital scanners.. military installations.. because M$ don't have a clue how to do that in a secure fashion.. so real business doesn't trust them. hahahaha
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.
  I would rather you hate me for who I am than love me for what I am not.
  “It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state.” - Bruce Schneier

  8.5.2009 16:50 #26

• gallagher

  Originally posted by varnull: Bundled "compulsory" software is against the standing business and trading agreements.. I wish the Euro zone governments would grow some testicles and demand the removal of all the bundled and compulsory to use crap from M$ systems.. or it can't be sold anywhere in the trading zone.. same goes for crapple.. another great anti-consumer organisation.How is it compulsory? It is not Microsoft's fault that many users are too retarded to install Firefox or Opera or whatever other browser they want. Is McDonald's evil for only serving Coke or Taco Bell for only serving Pepsi? No one forces anyone to buy Microsoft products. This is like suing Microsoft for including their standard controller rather than a competitor's controller. If you want the other one, go out and get it.
  
  I can see it next: If you like Papa John's cheese, Pizza Hut's crust, and Domino's sauce, you will be able to sue them and force them to sell you individual parts rather than the whole pizza. Talk about socialism.

  8.5.2009 18:51 #27

• ZippyDSM

  Quote:Originally posted by varnull: Bundled "compulsory" software is against the standing business and trading agreements.. I wish the Euro zone governments would grow some testicles and demand the removal of all the bundled and compulsory to use crap from M$ systems.. or it can't be sold anywhere in the trading zone.. same goes for crapple.. another great anti-consumer organisation.How is it compulsory? It is not Microsoft's fault that many users are too retarded to install Firefox or Opera or whatever other browser they want. Is McDonald's evil for only serving Coke or Taco Bell for only serving Pepsi? No one forces anyone to buy Microsoft products. This is like suing Microsoft for including their standard controller rather than a competitor's controller. If you want the other one, go out and get it.
  
  Pizza hut and dominoes are owned by the same company and use basically the same stuff, only pizza hut uses pan baking.
  
  Hell alot of stuff under different brands is made under the same factory...
  
  I can see it next: If you like Papa John's cheese, Pizza Hut's crust, and Domino's sauce, you will be able to sue them and force them to sell you individual parts rather than the whole pizza. Talk about socialism.

  8.5.2009 19:05 #28

• H_Seldon

  Most users of Firefox are pretty smart, or they wouldn't have figured out how easy it was to switch and that the benefits were substantially worthwhile.
  Internet Explorer is cornering the browser market for those who don't have the ability to comprehend the benefits of Firefox or the ability to change their default browser. These people wouldn't be annoyed upon learning of this tactic by Microsoft and would scratch their heads and wonder what all the hub hub was about.
  It's a good position for Mitchell to take, but the truth is that for most Firefox users her statement is false.
  Being more computer savvy then the diehard IE users, Firefox users will know they can switch back to Firefox and will not be as annoyed as Mitchell is - but instead as always will only be mildly annoyed - more amused than anything.
  It's a another stupid business decision by Microsoft but they're entitled to make these stupid decisions. We're not worried because it's simple to switch back to Firefox. Let them play their games while we continue to promote Firefox to all our relatives and friends.
  
  Hari
  
  

  Incremental Liberalism is change without informed consent.

  8.5.2009 19:39 #29

• KillerBug

  Originally posted by varnull: Bundled "compulsory" software is against the standing business and trading agreements.. I wish the Euro zone governments would grow some testicles and demand the removal of all the bundled and compulsory to use crap from M$ systems.. or it can't be sold anywhere in the trading zone.. same goes for crapple.. another great anti-consumer organisation.
  
  ...*nix systems tend to be quietly doing the real grunt behind your internet.. your atm.. your dvb .. your standalone dvd player .. your phone network.. the thing that pays your wages or welfare.. your hospital scanners.. military installations.. because M$ don't have a clue how to do that in a secure fashion.. so real business doesn't trust them. hahahaha
  1.) It's not compulsary. It is easily removed from Windows 7 completely. I have not seen a total uninstall tool for Internet Explorer come from microsoft since Win98, the lack of the uninstaller was one of the big complaints about the lawsuit you mentioned.
  
  If you go to a gas station and buy a tank of gas, and they give you a free Coca-Cola...is that compulsary? No, they are not forcing you to drink it. You can throw it away right there if you want to. The same is true of IE8.
  
  2.) yes, *nix is better for servers, data management, and a lot of the things that make the world go 'round. However, Windows is still much easier to use for most beginner users, and is also much easier to use for expeienced users who have little *nix experience. Also, there are many programs that will not run on *nix; many of them are needed (that specific program) by people working at certain companys.
  
  On top of everything else, there are about a thousand different forms of *nix. Some are resource-hungry gui monsters, others don't even have GUIs. It is all but impossible for anyone to become an expert on every *nix distribution. Compaire this to Windows, of which there is only one unique relese every few years. Linux has it's place, but so does windows...so stop bashing it for being what it is.
  
  ...And remember this: If a user has firefox/opera/chrome/whatever for a browser when they upgrade to Windows 7, they are effectivly installing the IE8 upgrade. To ask that such an upgrade not set itself as default when set to "express install" is just silly.

  8.5.2009 22:44 #30

• gallagher

  Originally posted by ZippyDSM: Pizza hut and dominoes are owned by the same company and use basically the same stuff, only pizza hut uses pan baking.
  
  Hell alot of stuff under different brands is made under the same factory...They are not owned by the same company.

  8.5.2009 23:09 #31

• atomicxl

  So there is an option to keep all of your settings and an option not to keep your settings. These guys are bitching over nothing.

  9.5.2009 09:52 #32

• ThePastor

  Wow, when I did an express update to Firefox it lost all of my bookmarks and set my homepage to firefox.com
  Should I sue them?
  
  I also think it is unwise to simply push IE out of your way and not stay familiar with it. I use both. One at home and one at work. For what I do this is fine. I've not had any security issues. I've not had any major issues at all. Sometimes I prefer IE and sometimes I prefer Firefox, but in reality, they both work fine.
  
  Is it good that people keep a close eye on what Microsoft does? Certainly. Is this a major issue? No.

  9.5.2009 19:20 #33

• bobiroc

  Wow, sounds to me like they are grasping at Straws. I think I will file a suit against Firefox because when I installed in on my Windows 7 and the first time launched the browser it wanted to make my default browser FF. I mean it almost forced me to used it. Many companies do this. How many software vendors include stupid tool bars like Java and the MSN toolbar or Adobe Flash and Shockwave and the Google Toolbar. If you do not uncheck that box the useless toolbar is forcefully installed onto your computer. Microsoft's express settings are no different than that if you ask me. If you read the pop up you can select a manual setup, so there is a CHOICE.

  9.5.2009 20:12 #34

• caballo1

  Has anyone ever thought that if Microsoft was forced to ship Windows without IE the average person would have no means of accessing the internet to obtain any other browser. I do not see anyone complaining that apple ships only Safari and does not include Opera or Firefox in their new machines.

  9.5.2009 20:27 #35

• XMayhemX

  Its like a wife cheating on you... what you don't know can't hurt you...
  
  The big deal is.. for ppl who don't know,
  The majority of the population, like my dad, mom, and my 2 sisters, only use internet explorer... and they are in the same group of ppl who don't know, or aren't smart enough to use the custom option, and Microsoft takes advantage of the ignorance to push their products...
  
  This is a marketing issue.. and I agree with Opera and Mozilla, that Microsoft is using it to help change browser usage dynamics..
  
  for the uneducated.. they are basically gonna sneak attack win 7 upgraders with changing all browser setting to IE if they choose express.. Not for us users who know what we are doing... but for the larger percentage of people.. like our brothers and sisters, and parents, who arent computer savvy enough to know to use FF or Opera.. and microsoft is like a predator, ready to eat up these noobs..
  
  this isnt like upgrading firefox, or toolbars.. this is the OS.. and once the OS is upgraded.. there will be a default browser in IE.. and alot of noobs will use it... Microsoft can get around it.. with a magnifying glass size paragraph in their end user agreement/terms of service info.
  
  
  some companies they can get away with stuff, just because of a lack of information..
  
  Our ISP does a similar thing(sort of), they sell cable internet for $30 a month, and guess what the bandwidth is.. 256k, yes, thats right the same dl speed as a 28.8 dial up modem...
  so everyone who isn't that good with a computer(ignorant not so smart computer users).. are getting ripped off...
  
  Its funny how Microsoft settles all their court cases with settlements.. lol they know they will lose, so they pay off the defendants... Another pathetic move to sway market dynamics
  Way To Go Microsoft...

  10.5.2009 03:26 #36

• XMayhemX

  Originally posted by caballo1: Has anyone ever thought that if Microsoft was forced to ship Windows without IE the average person would have no means of accessing the internet to obtain any other browser. I do not see anyone complaining that apple ships only Safari and does not include Opera or Firefox in their new machines.And if microsoft did that.. i would have a copy of firefox on a memory stick...
  
  Microsoft isnt new to these underhand tactics to try to sway the market.

  10.5.2009 03:34 #37

• SProdigy

  Originally posted by XMayhemX: Originally posted by caballo1: Has anyone ever thought that if Microsoft was forced to ship Windows without IE the average person would have no means of accessing the internet to obtain any other browser. I do not see anyone complaining that apple ships only Safari and does not include Opera or Firefox in their new machines.And if microsoft did that.. i would have a copy of firefox on a memory stick...
  
  Microsoft isnt new to these underhand tactics to try to sway the market.But you, I and most on this board are in the minority. I still know people who use the AOL software, can't copy and paste, and basically type with one finger, lucky enough they can go to Start -> Shutdown in Windows.
  
  I still don't see the big deal. We get Paint, Notepad, Calculator and other accessories by "default". How is a web browser any different? After all, this IS Microsoft's product.
  
  How about we start suing HP, Dell, Sony, Gateway, etc. for all of the crapware you get on retail boxes? Do I really want a Norton AV trial, Vongo, AOL, or any of the other junk that comes with the OS Installation partition/discs of these systems?
  
  Plus, someone said it best above; when installing Java or Adobe Flash/Shockwave, you run the risk of getting MSN or Google toolbars. Worse yet, these programs are typically set to AUTOUPDATE and you get this junk slipping in the backdoor if you aren't careful. It's a nightmare in an enterprise environment that depends on the updates, but has web-based software where Google blocks pop-ups and renders it useless!
  
  I can relate this to Yahoo Messenger. If you install YM, the express, default configuration will give you Yahoo Toolbar, set your homepage to Yahoo.com and force other junk onto your desktop and context menus. It's the same exact thing as this IE/Windows mess, but no one else gets their feathers ruffled because it's not Microsoft!

  10.5.2009 09:22 #38

• SProdigy

  Originally posted by caballo1: Has anyone ever thought that if Microsoft was forced to ship Windows without IE the average person would have no means of accessing the internet to obtain any other browser. I do not see anyone complaining that apple ships only Safari and does not include Opera or Firefox in their new machines.Exactly what I was eluding to earlier. I had to install Firefox by myself and set it as the default after installing OSX Tiger.
  
  As for Linux... I don't get the rabid fanbase. Okay, it's open source, but outside of Wine, try getting IE, Safari or Chrome running on it. You're stuck with Firefox (GASP! a default installation in Ubuntu!) or Opera, until Linux versions of other browsers are compiled.

  10.5.2009 09:28 #39

• keith1993

  OMG 7 should SO come with Firefox then it wouldn't be anti-competition...... ROFL

  10.5.2009 10:58 #40

• DXR88

  i do not recommend using IE at all, because just like varnull said it is tied into Explorer which in return has access to every thing on your computer.
  
  i always install SeaMonkey which was Mozilla at one point in time, if security is an issue for you than don't use IE its just as plain as day.
  
  one way MS could solve this issue is have retailers stuff one more piece of junk in there pre-install called firefox.
  
  i don't like firefox's new interface i find it about as helpful as crawling threw an unmanaged network room.
  
  Opera's interface is clean and strait forward, so is SeaMonkey's. fire fox's used to be but something happened.
  
  one more thing Unbundling IE could Cripple Explorer.exe.

  10.5.2009 17:59 #41

• KillerBug

  People keep saying "what about those who are too ignorant to download Firefox" - are they even going to try to do a windows 7 upgrade on their own? NO! They are going to ask the guy that setup firefox to do the upgrade, and he is going to use custom install anyway!
  

  Current System: Windows 7 RC1, DFI M2RS, ATI 3870HD, Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1600, Athlon 9950, 6GB Corsair DDR2, 1.5TB RAID-1, 750GB RAIR-1, 500GB RAID-1, 640GB RAID-0 Boot, Intel Gigabit NIC (PCI), LG 20X Lightscribe DVDR, 1430SA, Coolmax 1200w Power Supply, Logitech G15(first edition), Logitech G5(Second Edition), modified 4U server case.
  Overall configuration: Perfect chair, two 22" widescreens overhead, Logitech 5.1 Audio

  11.5.2009 03:06 #42

• hotdotdog

  Why shouldn't Microsoft offer this. When Firefox and Opera have built their own OS, they'll do the same thing. I'm tired of hearing all this griping about MS. Bill Gates is the reason I can buy a PC for $300 and a monitor for $100 (if I want to). Capitalism works.

  11.5.2009 17:27 #43

• bobiroc

  Originally posted by hotdotdog: Why shouldn't Microsoft offer this. When Firefox and Opera have built their own OS, they'll do the same thing. I'm tired of hearing all this griping about MS. Bill Gates is the reason I can buy a PC for $300 and a monitor for $100 (if I want to). Capitalism works.And you can be damn sure if the day comes and Google Releases an Operating System like the rumors have been for years it will only come with Chrome. Microsoft give you their browser (IE) with Windows and Apple Gives you their browser (Safari) with MacOS. You can download your favorite after the fact and change defaults if you wish. Of course you cannot install Internet Explorer on MacOS or Linux (maybe on Linux with some emulation or something) so who is really being anti-competitive? Windows is the only OS that you can install all of the major browsers on so IMO they are the most open to competition in this arena.

  11.5.2009 17:39 #44

• XMayhemX

  Originally posted by SProdigy: Originally posted by XMayhemX: Originally posted by caballo1: Has anyone ever thought that if Microsoft was forced to ship Windows without IE the average person would have no means of accessing the internet to obtain any other browser. I do not see anyone complaining that apple ships only Safari and does not include Opera or Firefox in their new machines.And if microsoft did that.. i would have a copy of firefox on a memory stick...
  
  Microsoft isnt new to these underhand tactics to try to sway the market.
  But you, I and most on this board are in the minority. I still know people who use the AOL software, can't copy and paste, and basically type with one finger, lucky enough they can go to Start -> Shutdown in Windows.
  
  
  
  I still don't see the big deal. We get Paint, Notepad, Calculator and other accessories by "default". How is a web browser any different? After all, this IS Microsoft's product.
  
  How about we start suing HP, Dell, Sony, Gateway, etc. for all of the crapware you get on retail boxes? Do I really want a Norton AV trial, Vongo, AOL, or any of the other junk that comes with the OS Installation partition/discs of these systems?
  
  Plus, someone said it best above; when installing Java or Adobe Flash/Shockwave, you run the risk of getting MSN or Google toolbars. Worse yet, these programs are typically set to AUTOUPDATE and you get this junk slipping in the backdoor if you aren't careful. It's a nightmare in an enterprise environment that depends on the updates, but has web-based software where Google blocks pop-ups and renders it useless!
  
  I can relate this to Yahoo Messenger. If you install YM, the express, default configuration will give you Yahoo Toolbar, set your homepage to Yahoo.com and force other junk onto your desktop and context menus. It's the same exact thing as this IE/Windows mess, but no one else gets their feathers ruffled because it's not Microsoft!exactly my point... Microsoft will take advantage of these majority users.. which isnt fair to the companies of Opera and Firefox Its changing program settings within the OS... which is different then changing setting within programs.. and since its THEIR OS, and THEIR browser settings switcharoo, it is a little unfair. Having different toolbars, or messengers, or other minor accessory programs is a little different, then these companies which focus primarily on browsers...
  
  Its a larger scale then toolbars and updates. Its about web browsers, which are arguable one of the most used programs in the entire world, for, arguably, the worlds favorite past time on computers. And the scale is executable software, not web based toolbars, plugins, and updates.
  
  The only thing is most noobs already use IE, so in that regard.. its not a big deal..
  
  Yes it is THEIR OS, and THEIR browser, so they are within their rights, but an comprehensible dialog box telling users whats happening is the least Microsoft could do, for those users that want to keep their settings, and don't know about the custom option.
  Opera and Firefox feel their getting the shaft in that regard.
  
  I think alot of you are missing the main gripe of Opera and Mozilla.
  
  "Our initial review suggests this is a blatant use of the Windows operating system to change the market dynamics of browser usage," Mozilla chairman Mitchell Baker adds.
  
  Opera CTO Hakon Wium Lie agreed with Baker and believes the "express" option is a "problem."
  
  Blatantly using their own OS to change market dynamics for browser usage
  
  Its a bigger deal to these browser companies then you guys understand, changing market dynamics, especially in this day and age. I don't believe its a law to change market dynamics, but when its their own product they are doing it in.. it is a little blatantly underhanded, and the government has ruled against microsoft in the past. Not that this issue is going that far, mind you.
  
  If you go back and look at court cases in which Microsoft was in, you'll see an amazing majority of them are settlements, with Microsoft paying off the other side with lumps of money...
  
  A settlement is when you know your going to lose a case, and you "settle up", by offering money or something of value for the other party.
  
  Not only are they veterans of underhanded tactics, they practically admit to using underhanded tactics, and work around the law as best they can.
  
  Microsoft is like a bully in school, and our government is like the principle, they can recieve reprimands for their actions, and be punished for every rule they break, or new rule established because of them, but no matter how many cases Microsoft loses, and detentions the bully gets, the government can only do so much, like the principle can only punish for so long. Luckily, in extreme cases, the principle can kick the bully out, similar to the government stepping in and resolving business issues directly and permanately.

  13.5.2009 05:12 #45

• Mez

  XMayhemX, who ever said life was fair?
  
  If you are the little guy you just have to be that much better. It is better for them in the long run. M$ needs every dirty trick in to book to keep afloat. Their days of glory are long gone. Some OS built for a portable will put them out of business.

  13.5.2009 06:28 #46

• XMayhemX

  Originally posted by Mez: XMayhemX, who ever said life was fair?
  
  If you are the little guy you just have to be that much better. It is better for them in the long run. M$ needs every dirty trick in to book to keep afloat. Their days of glory are long gone. Some OS built for a portable will put them out of business.
  you dont have to ask me... did you just read my last post? lol...
  looks like you agree with me, actually.. kudos to someone who sees the light at the end of the tunnel...

  13.5.2009 14:14 #47