AfterDawn: News

UFC will sue individuals for PPV piracy

UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) president Dana White has said today that the sport is preparing to sue individuals and websites that offer the MMA content illegally.

The UFC made about $350 million in PPV revenue in 2009, but many websites have been streaming the UFC PPV events for free online, while they are playing live.



UFC CEO Lorenzo Fertitta said his anti-piracy group had found 271 illegal streams of the UFC 106 event, with a total of 140,000 viewers.

"The piracy of live sporting events is illegal, it kills jobs, and it threatens the expansion of U.S. based companies," Fertitta added. "The UFC is potentially losing millions of dollars a year from piracy."

White, clearly extremely angered by pirates, says the company has been considering the legal actions since 2007 but will take the leap this year due to heavier "losses."

"It's going to be a battle, man," White says, via MMAJ. "It's going to be a battle, but I'm ready to {censored} fight.We're gonna go after them, we're gonna go after them hard, and we're gonna hurt them."

White readily admits however that the lawsuits will cost the MMA far more money then the piracy is "costing them."

"[Piracy] hasn't cost us anything compared to what it's going to cost us to go after these guys. It's gonna cost us a lot of money, but guess what — it's gonna cost them a lot of money. It's gonna get to the point where it's like, you know what, [expletive] it, maybe we shouldn't pirate MMA any more. You got these websites like Justin.tv, and they pirate all kinds of things. They play all kinds of [expletive] on there. Well, we're gonna make it where it's not worth it to put UFC events up on the website," he says.

PPVs cost $45 per event in SD and $56 in HD.

Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 6 Jan 2010 17:55

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• 48 comments

• thor999

  ...let's get it on!!!

  6.1.2010 18:18 #1

• ivymike

  "[Piracy] hasn't cost us anything compared to what it's going to cost us to go after these guys"
  
  So why bother?!?
  There's a saying "Choose your battles".

  6.1.2010 19:22 #2

• Mysttic

  I believe someone is thinking through testosterone... Well lets see them start this up, considering what he stated doesn't even make sense. If its going to cost you more to go after all of em, then obviously they haven't lost all that much. Way to fight the good fight...

  6.1.2010 19:25 #3

• beanos66

  Originally posted by Joe Rogan: You can't beat the internet, Baby p.s. Never heard of justin.tv, thx dana

  6.1.2010 23:21 #4

• tatsh

  Good. I hate UFC and similar things anyway.

  6.1.2010 23:55 #5

• cyprusrom

  Originally posted by beanos66: Originally posted by Joe Rogan: You can't beat the internet, Baby p.s. Never heard of justin.tv, thx dana
  Justin.tv ROCKS!!!
  
  

  
  Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!

  7.1.2010 00:21 #6

• xboxdvl2

  im in australia and we get UFC on digital free to air tv and high def tv.i doubt that its live but the fact is we still get it for free.instead of taking out lawsuits why dont they just send top fighters to go around peoples houses/businesses and sort out this problem????
  

  PS2 with 12 games.

  7.1.2010 00:59 #7

• cyprusrom

  Originally posted by xboxdvl2: ...instead of taking out lawsuits why dont they just send top fighters to go around peoples houses/businesses and sort out this problem????
  And then what?
  

  
  Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!

  7.1.2010 01:20 #8

• pcrazy99

  If the recording industry has problems with piracy, what makes him think the UFC can stop it? I don't think he really knows how hard this is going to be.

  7.1.2010 02:08 #9

• cart0181

  Originally posted by Mysttic: I believe someone is thinking through testosterone... Well lets see them start this up, considering what he stated doesn't even make sense. If its going to cost you more to go after all of em, then obviously they haven't lost all that much. Way to fight the good fight...Testosterone? Or Principles? Often, it does cost more to do the right thing, but that's okay. It sounds like he's ready to accept those costs, not that I would agree with him necessarily.

  7.1.2010 03:40 #10

• fgamer

  OK, he's gonna try to fight a battle that can't be won? Things on the internet cannot be thwarted, it'll just multiply. But I'm assuming he's looking at it as an investment. Invest in the lawyers to sue sue sue and in the future see a reduction in the sites willing to stream this stuff..therefore forcing the ones dependent on those necessary sites to buy the event on PPV. But my guess is, most people that are use to pirating are not gonna become payers so it seems like it can be lose lose.

  7.1.2010 08:56 #11

• ZippyDSM

  Morons........ either go after the big name sites you hear of or don't bother at all...you can't afford to police the net.....

  7.1.2010 09:40 #12

• catfreak

  . . . sound to me like somebody has taken too many shots to the old noggin

  7.1.2010 10:32 #13

• IguanaC64

  I'll have to check out Justin.tv tonight when I get home!

  7.1.2010 10:36 #14

• babysatan

  Quote:Originally posted by xboxdvl2: ...instead of taking out lawsuits why dont they just send top fighters to go around peoples houses/businesses and sort out this problem????
  And then what?
  Put them in a triangle choke until they submit, silly goose.

  7.1.2010 10:49 #15

• cyprusrom

  Quote:Quote:Originally posted by xboxdvl2: ...instead of taking out lawsuits why dont they just send top fighters to go around peoples houses/businesses and sort out this problem????
  And then what?
  Put them in a triangle choke until they submit, silly goose.
  A bunch of numbskulls walking around and choking people...I can see that...What if they use a trapeze choke?

  7.1.2010 11:21 #16

• scum101

  They wouldn't dare to knock on REAL peoples doors.. sports entertainment.. oh yeah.. actors LMFAO!! Not that I would like to meet any of the animals up a dark back alley, but I can hold my own against most my size and larger.. bang on my door and accuse me of being a pirate?.. I have a nice bat.. oops!
  
  Now the clever people will find a heap of unused ip's belonging to this company.. and start streaming from them.. we love to see businesses sue themselves .. hahahaha
  

  Yes, we give you 100% free, no strings attached email! Just send us your address and we will send you as much free email as you could ever wish for

  7.1.2010 11:28 #17

• ChappyTTV

  Originally posted by scum101: They wouldn't dare to knock on REAL peoples doors.. sports entertainment.. oh yeah.. actors LMFAO!! Not that I would like to meet any of the animals up a dark back alley, but I can hold my own against most my size and larger.. bang on my door and accuse me of being a pirate?.. I have a nice bat.. oops!
  
  Now the clever people will find a heap of unused ip's belonging to this company.. and start streaming from them.. we love to see businesses sue themselves .. hahahahaUhhh...what? "Actors"?
  In Pro wrestling yes, but not in MMA which is what the UFC is..this is for real and a very multi-disciplined fighting sport.
  
  Nice try on the macho "bravado" front, but I seriously doubt you would stand up well against any pro MMA fighter in your weight class, or even a lower weight class for that matter. I'm a 2nd dan black in Tae-kwon-do with experience in other styles as well, and honestly...you don't know what would be in store for you, I think you'd find that bat of yours would need to be surgically removed from your anus if you tried that with an MMA "actor...LMFAO"
  
  As for the article, unfortunately I think this will drive out much of the streaming and torrents of UFC and other MMA stuff. They have a ton of $$$ and there have been some serious hits to the torrent community lately, with major fines and sites shutting down. It's all starting to take it's toll I think, and many sites simply don't want the legal hassle and costs that could be forthcoming.
  They will win this fight eventually, either by flooding lawsuits and simply driving sites down with overwhelming pressure (as they're doing now), or getting Internet laws in place that will strangle much of what we believe should be free content. Many countries are talking laws about Web governance and unfortunately, the web as we know it now may be a dying entity.

  7.1.2010 17:38 #18

• hermes_vb

  Quote:Originally posted by xboxdvl2: ...instead of taking out lawsuits why don't they just send top fighters to go around peoples houses/businesses and sort out this problem????
  And then what?They will stream the beat down live on their site where paying customers will be able watch it with Joe Rogan's commentary.

  8.1.2010 00:58 #19

• Serialluv

  Quote:Originally posted by scum101: They wouldn't dare to knock on REAL peoples doors.. sports entertainment.. oh yeah.. actors LMFAO!! Not that I would like to meet any of the animals up a dark back alley, but I can hold my own against most my size and larger.. bang on my door and accuse me of being a pirate?.. I have a nice bat.. oops!
  
  Now the clever people will find a heap of unused ip's belonging to this company.. and start streaming from them.. we love to see businesses sue themselves .. hahahahaUhhh...what? "Actors"?
  In Pro wrestling yes, but not in MMA which is what the UFC is..this is for real and a very multi-disciplined fighting sport.
  
  Nice try on the macho "bravado" front, but I seriously doubt you would stand up well against any pro MMA fighter in your weight class, or even a lower weight class for that matter. I'm a 2nd dan black in Tae-kwon-do with experience in other styles as well, and honestly...you don't know what would be in store for you, I think you'd find that bat of yours would need to be surgically removed from your anus if you tried that with an MMA "actor...LMFAO"
  
  As for the article, unfortunately I think this will drive out much of the streaming and torrents of UFC and other MMA stuff. They have a ton of $$$ and there have been some serious hits to the torrent community lately, with major fines and sites shutting down. It's all starting to take it's toll I think, and many sites simply don't want the legal hassle and costs that could be forthcoming.
  They will win this fight eventually, either by flooding lawsuits and simply driving sites down with overwhelming pressure (as they're doing now), or getting Internet laws in place that will strangle much of what we believe should be free content. Many countries are talking laws about Web governance and unfortunately, the web as we know it now may be a dying entity.Well said I literally LMAO at his comments. I am an MMA fighter, with training in both traditional disciplines including TKD :) And I grew up in a rough area. A baseball bat ain't going to save you as Chappy said you would need it surgically removing.
  
  These guys aren't pro wrestlers they are legitimate fighters, who step up against opponents that can literally kill you in a heartbeat. There's a reason why cage fighting was banned for years. This is real. Think your tough in your weight class, and can hold your own? Step into a ring against any pro and see how long you last. You last more than 3 minutes and the MMA community will pay you your medical bills, because you'll be hired to fight professionally.
  
  At the end of the day this is for principles, Dana says it'll cost them more and they haven't lost anything, except potential income. Well although he's in for a battle, I say fair play to him for recognising that, it's potential and not actual lost sales.
  
  They'll go after the hosting services and the cappers not the watchers. Remove the source and the problem dissapears. Make note he is referring to streaming services and not torrents or other uploads of PPV's this could tip the balance in his favour, it will force groups back underground closing communities and prevent the widespread showing on places like justin.tv

  8.1.2010 05:36 #20

• xboxdvl2

  i actually watched a 2 UFC fights on tv the otherday for the first time and them fights seem pretty tame.ive seen kickboxing and taekwondo competitions that look more vicious.i did 3 years training my self and i thing if i started training again i'd probably beat some of them and i guarentee my brother or my cousin would kick there ass.
  

  PS2 with 12 games.

  8.1.2010 08:51 #21

• scum101

  Chappy.. I was a rock club bouncer for 3 years.. come to my house and I will kick YOUR arse for you quite happily..
  
  Last person tried it woke up 9 hours later with a wired up jaw.. and I only hit them once.
  
  Right now some of my friends are hunting down this companies ip's and experimenting with ip spoofing methods for streaming. They will be shown up for their stupidity.
  
  As usual a fanboy doesn't have the intellect to see a joke.. *giggles* .. come my house and get your arse well and truly kicked by a girl XD
  

  Yes, we give you 100% free, no strings attached email! Just send us your address and we will send you as much free email as you could ever wish for

  8.1.2010 09:08 #22

• cyprusrom

  Quote:...
  
  Well said I literally LMAO at his comments. I am an MMA fighter, with training in both traditional disciplines including TKD :) And I grew up in a rough area. A baseball bat ain't going to save you as Chappy said you would need it surgically removing.
  
  ...
  Every time time I read something like that, it makes me laugh...and sad at the same time...C'mon, it's a public forum, no one is gonna be really impressed...too much muscle flexing, illusions of grandeur,invincibility, not convoluted enough meninges.
  
  http://martialarts.about.com/b/2010/01/0...-club-fight.htm

  8.1.2010 09:56 #23

• Serialluv

  Originally posted by cyprusrom: Quote:...
  
  Well said I literally LMAO at his comments. I am an MMA fighter, with training in both traditional disciplines including TKD :) And I grew up in a rough area. A baseball bat ain't going to save you as Chappy said you would need it surgically removing.
  
  ...
  Every time time I read something like that, it makes me laugh...and sad at the same time...C'mon, it's a public forum, no one is gonna be really impressed...too much muscle flexing, illusions of grandeur,invincibility, not convoluted enough meninges.
  
  " target="_blank">http://martialarts.about.com/b/2010/01/0...ght.htm
  
  I was flexing nothing, nor mouthing off trying to look big on a public forum, I merely stated those points to show where I was coming from, as in my own personal experience.
  
  However, if that's what you want to take from it that's fine.

  8.1.2010 10:11 #24

• ChappyTTV

  Originally posted by scum101: Chappy.. I was a rock club bouncer for 3 years.. come to my house and I will kick YOUR arse for you quite happily..
  
  Last person tried it woke up 9 hours later with a wired up jaw.. and I only hit them once.
  
  Right now some of my friends are hunting down this companies ip's and experimenting with ip spoofing methods for streaming. They will be shown up for their stupidity.
  
  As usual a fanboy doesn't have the intellect to see a joke.. *giggles* .. come my house and get your arse well and truly kicked by a girl XDPlease...stop, before you really make an ass of yourself, you're NOT intimidating anyone.
  I'm no "fanboy" but I do like the fighting arts, and when you say MMA fighters are "actors", as like pro wrestling employs, then you're just asking for a verbal spar aren't you...your "joke" was not obvious.
  Now you're attempting to intimidate me? I have my own history buddy and you know nothing of it. Plus I'm not going to try and pump myself up here by posting whatever that history may be, it looks ridiculous and accomplishes nothing. So this be the last of this stupidity.
  
  Back on topic, unfortunately I see the end of sharing as we all know it now in the not too distant future. While we all love to say that they simply can't take us ALL on, and we'll always keep opening up new sites for sharing, in reality I just can't see it continuing too much longer. Already many site admins I know well are contemplating closing up before the hammer falls, there is simply too much pressure being applied. As new lawsuits are laid and bigger fines assessed, even the most die-hard share folk are going to think twice about it. And the lawmakers are formulating new ways to combat it as I type, soon there will be universal laws governing all of what we can or can't do with any type of copyrighted materials. The web is quickly becoming a marketplace with small communities (forums), instead of the other way round which is what we've been used to all these years.
  
  Sure, some newer technology will replace torrents and keep us on ahead for a short time again, but we simply don't have the resources that they do to fight us, so eventually they're gonna win this fight.
  
  BTW scum101, if I ever came over to your house, I'd much rather have a beer than a fight anyday ;)

  8.1.2010 16:16 #25

• gmontalc

  UFC at its beginnings the owners and promoters were happy to see those websites giving a lot of free promotions to those non-profitable media and not so legal fights, but now that they're making millions of $US dollars want to go after every single cent. (greedy bastards)
  
  BTW, Nowdays the UFC fights are lame and boring, one fighter kicked ass when the other is scared chicken, lately for quite sometime now, the fights aren't even close to once it was.

  8.1.2010 17:34 #26

• ChappyTTV

  Originally posted by gmontalc:
  BTW, Nowdays the UFC fights are lame and boring, one fighter kicked ass when the other is scared chicken, lately for quite sometime now, the fights aren't even close to once it was.I have to agree here sometimes, it's almost as tho some fighters are trying not to Lose instead of going all out to win.
  Some fights tho are still kick-ass standup battles or really exciting BJJ with lots of move-countermove action. I hate it when a guy just lays on top of another guy and smothers the fight into boredom, working just enough so the ref doesn't stand it up...yech! That's not fighting!

  8.1.2010 18:35 #27

• gmontalc

  Quote:I hate it when a guy just lays on top of another guy and smothers the fight into boredom, working just enough so the ref doesn't stand it up...yech! That's not fighting!And not to say when the so call the biggest fight of the evening between two furious fighters goes on and on dancing around the cage throwing a jab o two afar from two meters away from each other.
  
  good example UFC 108, Thiago Silva vs. Rashad Evans, stupid fight, all night long smothering and running away from each other, until lucky punch from Silva, but by then he couldn't finished Evans because he was too tired from running around.
  
  Kimbo Slice vs Houston Alexander, Houston was obviously chicken scared... and many more similar fights.
  
  Yet, the greedy Dana White & Co. wants more and more money from the people.
  
  My suggestion to resolve these money ($$$) problems is to bring the rules from PRIDE FIGHTING (Japan), if the fighter shows laziness or no action, he would be penalized with the half of his winning purse (Yellow Card), if he for the second time happens in the fight gets penalty with no purse (Red Card), and has to continue fighting for Self-Pride otherwise he is out of any fighting contract.
  
  So, by taken these rules the fighter will stay hungry for the money and also to keep his contract current, and also "we" the fans will see more action value for the buck we paid.

  8.1.2010 19:43 #28

• xboxdvl2

  Quote: Chappy.. I was a rock club bouncer for 3 years.. come to my house and I will kick YOUR arse for you quite happily..
  
  Last person tried it woke up 9 hours later with a wired up jaw.. and I only hit them once.
  
  Right now some of my friends are hunting down this companies ip's and experimenting with ip spoofing methods for streaming. They will be shown up for their stupidity.
  
  As usual a fanboy doesn't have the intellect to see a joke.. *giggles* .. come my house and get your arse well and truly kicked by a girl XD
  
  Scum101 i dont know whether the thought or having my ass kicked by a girl is scary or a turn on????On the otherhand i dont go around picking fights.if someone was willing to pay me the amount of money UFC fighters make to beat someone up i just might consider it.I think if the fighters tryed to focus on injuring the opponent rather than standing 2metres away blocking air punches that are no where near them they'd have more chance of winning the fight and it would be more entertaining.On the tv the otherday when i watched the UFC straight after was some clasic boxing matches and them fights looked brutal compared to the UFC.
  

  PS2 with 12 games.

  9.1.2010 00:50 #29

• omegaman7

  Oh boo hoo! Ever thought that maybe that loss is because some people don't get off on watching a fight anymore? I don't watch ANY sports. Least of all, wrestling, boxing, etc. I wouldn't pirate that garbage if my life depended on it :p
  Just my 2cents though...
  
  Violence begets more violence...

  9.1.2010 15:45 #30

• pcrazy99

  Just because someone will watch these fights on a stream doesn't they will pay for the PPV. I think Mr. White is wasting his money and should just accept the fact that his sport will be streamed over the net without his consent.

  9.1.2010 20:25 #31

• catfreak

  Give me 5' and my shotgun . . just how tough will you bad-a$$es be then?

  9.1.2010 20:38 #32

• xboxdvl2

  Quote:Give me 5' and my shotgun . . just how tough will you bad-a$$es be then?just hope you dont run out of bullets.you could get decked while reloading
  

  PS2 with 12 games.

  9.1.2010 21:22 #33

• DVDBack23

  Originally posted by pcrazy99: Just because someone will watch these fights on a stream doesn't they will pay for the PPV. I think Mr. White is wasting his money and should just accept the fact that his sport will be streamed over the net without his consent.EXACTLY. Most people pirating are of High School age, and probably could not afford to but the PPV anyways (even with a few friends).

  10.1.2010 13:23 #34

• Serialluv

  In all fairness Dana does say they aren't lost sales though, just potential losses. He does have the sense to realise that not everyone would buy it if there were no other alternative.Some credit it where it's due at least I reckon

  10.1.2010 14:08 #35

• cyprusrom

  Originally posted by Serialluv: In all fairness Dana does say they aren't lost sales though, just potential losses. He does have the sense to realise that not everyone would buy it if there were no other alternative.Some credit it where it's due at least I reckon
  Credit for what? Everything you just said, you put words in his mouth, I couldn't find it anywhere in the article, not even implied.

  10.1.2010 16:22 #36

• Serialluv

  Quote:Originally posted by Serialluv: In all fairness Dana does say they aren't lost sales though, just potential losses. He does have the sense to realise that not everyone would buy it if there were no other alternative.Some credit it where it's due at least I reckon
  Credit for what? Everything you just said, you put words in his mouth, I couldn't find it anywhere in the article, not even implied.Did you read it then???
  
  Quote:[Piracy] hasn't cost us anything

  10.1.2010 18:27 #37

• cyprusrom

  Quote:Quote:Originally posted by Serialluv: In all fairness Dana does say they aren't lost sales though, just potential losses. He does have the sense to realise that not everyone would buy it if there were no other alternative.Some credit it where it's due at least I reckon
  Credit for what? Everything you just said, you put words in his mouth, I couldn't find it anywhere in the article, not even implied.Did you read it then???
  
  Quote:[Piracy] hasn't cost us anything
  Yes, I read it. You read it too, obviously, you just didn't understand it.
  
  Quote:"[Piracy] hasn't cost us anything compared to what it's going to cost us to go after these guys. It's gonna cost us a lot of money...[/b]
  Unless one is dyslexic, is written black on white(rephrasing):
  "Piracy cost us money, and comparing to it is going to cost us much,much more to go after these guys, is gonna cost us a lot of money".
  Or,
  "Compared to what piracy cost us, is going to cost us much more to go after these guys."
  
  English language can be tricky...you missed that "compared to", which kicks the hell out of your negation...
  .
  "A double negative doesn't occur when no two forms of non-negation aren't not used in no not-same unsentence. Not in no languages no non-double unnegative doesn't resolve not to a non-negative, while in no others it doesn't not resolve to no not-positive"(via Uncyclopedia)

  10.1.2010 18:46 #38

• Serialluv

  Don't be a smart-ass before you mouth off about English, you might want to check who you're trying to smart off too! I have an English Masters and a PHD. I teach it for a living and write part time. You clearly state in your argument paraphrasing - you are aware of the origins of this word?
  
  Just because you read something one way, and somebody else reads it another, does not make either party correct. Personally, I read it as Dana saying that it doesn't automatically convert into lost sales.
  
  But I believe it doesn't matter what I say, as you are obviously so arrogant you will be confident you are right and come straight back at my comment, with reasons as to why you are right and I am wrong, why you are better. I got news for you NOBODY CARES!!!! This is the last I will be responding, you just aren't worth my time.
  
  And If I have made any English errors in my argument, you can attribute that to the fact that due to a long standing back injury I am currently on morphine.

  10.1.2010 18:54 #39

• cyprusrom

  Sorry about your pain...morphine is a good excuse.
  
  Quote:"I got news for you NOBODY CARES!!!! This is the last I will be responding, you just aren't worth my time."-This is a pretty normal/standard response from someone that doesn't have a better argument, and too proud to admit he had a brain fart. You obviously care, since you bothered to write more than just "go to hell", or something on that line...or not write anything at all...
  
  Quote:"And If I have made any English errors in my argument, you can attribute that to the fact that due to a long standing back injury I am currently on morphine."If you would've started and stopped with that, you would've had my respect(not that you'd care anyway!!) Instead you wave around some Master of English PHD SUperDuper, which obviously didn't help you today. Those poor kids you're teaching, that's the gloomy future of the country right there.
  
  Yes, you are right about one thing...I AM an arrogant SOB, and this time happens that I am right. And no I don't know the origin of a fancy word like "paraphrasing", it just happens that I get lucky sometimes and use it in the right context.
  
  Online muscle flexing behind a screen is so much fun! If I am late responding to your next argument, is because I am out to grab another beer...Cheers(would do you good, it might augment the morphine's analgesic effect)!!!

  10.1.2010 19:16 #40

• omegaman7

  Unsubscribed!!!

  10.1.2010 19:28 #41

• Jimmer12

  geeez.. yeah because Dana White definitely isnt making enough money off of the PPV events.. Its not because they care about piracy, its because theyre becoming greedy as shit.

  10.1.2010 20:21 #42

• babysatan

  Originally posted by Serialluv: I have an English Masters and a PHD. I teach it for a living and write part time.
  Well I am Dana White and I can tell you that's not what I meant!
  Hey, if you can BS, I can to.;)

  11.1.2010 11:39 #43

• thepohl

  Quote:Quote:Originally posted by xboxdvl2: ...instead of taking out lawsuits why don't they just send top fighters to go around peoples houses/businesses and sort out this problem????
  And then what?They will stream the beat down live on their site where paying customers will be able watch it with Joe Rogan's commentary.ILLD PAY TO C THAT!!

  11.1.2010 19:03 #44

• nyurbiz

  It is always amusing to see greedy companies thinking that litigation will make them money in the long run. It's hard to get blood from a turnip, and law suits against people who will never pay for your product doesn't make sense. You end up spending money for nothing except making yourself look ridiculous and greedy. How much money is enough? Is US$350,000,000 in not enough 2009 alone not enough?

  21.1.2010 16:27 #45

• ZachDunlow (unverified)

  Guys avoid this site it's been taken over by the feds in a sting operation.
  
  http://www.xmeforums.com/forums/

  5.6.2010 22:00 #46

• ZachDunlow-is-a-Liar (unverified)

  Originally posted by ZachDunlow: Guys avoid this site it's been taken over by the feds in a sting operation.
  
  http://www.xmeforums.com/forums/
  
  this guy is a liar. he's butt hurt because he got banned from the site.

  13.6.2010 14:39 #47

• lsd447

  MMA is all well and good in a ring, but a bat round the back of any mans head puts him down, it's not being macho or anyhing, it's just biology, make their brain shake inside their skull and bingo KO. Krav maga is about the only martial art useable in the real world FACT, even then it doesn't claim to make you superhuman, taking a bat over your head, being your special power.
  

  Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.
  C. S. Lewis

  13.6.2010 16:34 #48