AfterDawn: News

Sony cites PGR4 when saying Blu-ray investment was justified

After hearing comments from the developers of Project Gotham Racing 4, Sony cited the comments to justify its large investment in Blu-ray discs.

The developers said they were having trouble fitting the game data into a single DVD-9. "We took a lot of heat at launch for including Blu-ray in PS3. Now it looks like that investment is being justified," said SCEA spokesman Dave Karraker.

"Next generation games simply need more space on the disc to contain all that high definition content. Take a look at Lair, for example, already pushing 25GB of content, and that is a first-generation title. At 50GB storage capacity, Blu-ray gives the PS3 plenty of headroom for developers to fully realize their visions well into the future."



Bizarre Creations, the developer of PGR4, recently revealed that due to having trouble fitting all the texture data on a single DVD, players would not "see different times of day in each racing location." Clearly a few hundred MB of extra texture data is worth hundreds of millions of dollars in investments.

Source:
GI.biz

Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 1 Aug 2007 16:36

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• 28 comments

• japhy

  I wonder if MS is going to be kicking themselves in the rear in a few years when they can't have all of the features that can be included on PS3 games. Can you imagine how big the next GTA V is going to be.

  1.8.2007 17:16 #1

• lxfactor

  now microsoft will have a download pack that changes times of the day in the game. and charge alot for it.

  1.8.2007 17:19 #2

• OzMick

  http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
  
  This was never an "announcement", and has already been addressed and clarified. They are basically adding filler to the disc as it is to use up extra space. Hell, I could fill a couple of DVDs with crap if I wanted to. Anyone could. They're just doing that, filling out a disc, and describing the method they used.

  1.8.2007 17:20 #3

• lxfactor

  Originally posted by OzMick: http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
  
  This was never an "announcement", and has already been addressed and clarified. They are basically adding filler to the disc as it is to use up extra space. Hell, I could fill a couple of DVDs with crap if I wanted to. Anyone could. They're just doing that, filling out a disc, and describing the method they used.calm down its only a game

  1.8.2007 17:25 #4

• Riotard

  LOL! what a joke, they just need to get better compressions, sorry but only stupid games, with a stupid amount of pointless Gb will ever get up to 20GB let alone 25Gb or even this stupid 50GB!
  
  They managed to fit bloody GTA 4 onto a single disc! this just shows they ahve a **** compresser and that they are filling the game with pointless stuff, probably with a few hundred songs at HD audio def and stuff, that isn't needed at all.
  
  As for this 'Lair' game never bloody heard of it! 25GB! lol what did they use no compressiosn what so ever!
  
  My point is proven when ff12 is less then 3GB in sizE! So plz explain how more spce is needed. Oblvion 4: Eldar Scrolls is the biggest game ever made, yet it still fits onto a DVD9( i mean in size i.e. where u can walk) So this shows good compressions work wonders Also soem of this shows companies that work with M$ get extra support in compression espically if they are exclusive!

  1.8.2007 17:41 #5

• OzMick

  Quote:calm down its only a gameSays the person jumping to conclusions about the news...

  1.8.2007 17:51 #6

• vinny13

  Originally posted by Riotard: LOL! what a joke, they just need to get better compressions, sorry but only stupid games, with a stupid amount of pointless Gb will ever get up to 20GB let alone 25Gb or even this stupid 50GB!
  
  They managed to fit bloody GTA 4 onto a single disc! this just shows they ahve a **** compresser and that they are filling the game with pointless stuff, probably with a few hundred songs at HD audio def and stuff, that isn't needed at all.
  
  As for this 'Lair' game never bloody heard of it! 25GB! lol what did they use no compressiosn what so ever!
  
  My point is proven when ff12 is less then 3GB in sizE! So plz explain how more spce is needed. Oblvion 4: Eldar Scrolls is the biggest game ever made, yet it still fits onto a DVD9( i mean in size i.e. where u can walk) So this shows good compressions work wonders Also soem of this shows companies that work with M$ get extra support in compression espically if they are exclusive!Oh ya! GTA: San Andreas also fit on a SL disc! And it looks like sh!it too(still my favourite game though)!
  
  The more space there is, the better the graphics.
  
  More Space = Less Compression = Higher Quality.
  
  If you think GoW looked good, imagine what it could have been with 50GB to waste?

  1.8.2007 19:59 #7

• oofRome

  Quote:As for this 'Lair' game never bloody heard of it!Um...
  It's pretty big.

  1.8.2007 20:43 #8

• vinny13

  Quote:Quote:As for this 'Lair' game never bloody heard of it!Um...
  It's pretty big.I forgot to point that out lol

  1.8.2007 20:56 #9

• Kazi

  is it taboo to go on to a 2nd disc or something? If it's going to make a better game, why not make it 2 or 3 discs instead of trying to cram it all on 1.

  1.8.2007 22:17 #10

• pisho

  Originally posted by Kazi: is it taboo to go on to a 2nd disc or something? If it's going to make a better game, why not make it 2 or 3 discs instead of trying to cram it all on 1.
  I reckon they dont want to spread the game over multiple discs because it will justify sony's decision to include blu-ray in the ps3, thus making 360 look inferior with its decision to stick with a proven last gen format.

  1.8.2007 22:47 #11

• Andrew691

  Originally posted by Kazi: is it taboo to go on to a 2nd disc or something? If it's going to make a better game, why not make it 2 or 3 discs instead of trying to cram it all on 1.Thats only really suitable for certain types of game (most types), try playing a 2-3 disc free roam game like GTA. yea didnt think so..
  
  Unless multi disc games are made, game quality will drop, or rather the quality may slightly improve but the game will get shorter (GOW for example, great looking but short story). The thing with compression is that you can only compress so far, then on the other end the system needs to be easily able to uncompress the data a fast enough speeds for it to not be noticed via lag etc. In this case while doing some heavy decompression of textures the console is still trying to keep up with what the user is doing(in the game), meaning that a massive amount of processing power is needed to run a stable game, unless they have a massive loading screen before the game starts, and even then where will the data go? with the lack of an HDD as standard the only real place is for it is to stay in RAM, so the systems performance is yet again limited.

  2.8.2007 00:59 #12

• Riotard

  The fact of the matter is, that sony don't even bother usign the Dl yet, they only use the single layer, and basically all the games are designed to fit onto a DVD9 so making the BR usless. This si the reason why M$ aren't going to put gaes on to a HD DVD, because it just means the cost of making the game exclusive is not justified, so it goes multi plat. The more space they have the more it costs to fill it, with lack luster sales fo the ps3 and there amazing 50GB (more like 25GB cause there not using DL yet) space, means games just cost way too much to make, if they are exclusive on a consol which has sold the least.
  I'd also liek to point out!graphics wotn suffer from lack of space, because the consols have higher power graphics cards, making the graphics soo much better. Take FFIX 4 disc (CD discs) around 2.8GB in total, then take FFXII 1 DVD but the size is also around 2.9GB, plz explain why squareenix have not used this extra 1 GB if compression rele makes graphics shitter!
  
  
  What consol was 'Lair' on, because i've never heard of it also what genre was it?

  2.8.2007 03:05 #13

• kyo28

  For me it's clear that right now, BR doesn't offer an advantage over DVD as far as games go. However, BR is the better choice if you want future-proof tech, as I can see games in 2 years needing or being able to use the extra space.

  2.8.2007 03:21 #14

• DVDBack23

  riotard,
  Lair is one of the most hyped PS3 games coming out :)

  2.8.2007 03:45 #15

• molsen

  Personally, I do not own any new gen system yet. However, I like the idea of having uncompressed games because, I feel it will be more fluent(spelling) game play. Yes, you can fit most things onto a dvd9. But, at what cost? Meaning hotter processer temps and MB temps. If the means is out there, then do it. Right now I use a PC and PS2 for game play. I am waiting to see what "new" consol will offer me the biggest bang for the buck. Before the rant on this, I just don't have the resources to have all 3. Family and a house takes most of the cash. I still waiting, that's all. Until the PS2 is dead, I'll just wait.

  2.8.2007 04:35 #16

• nobrainer

  what a load of fud from sony as usual. if the blu-ray is so important because of larger games please someone tell me why oblivion has to install 5gig of data onto the hard drive to play it, if it requires an install surly 2 dvd9's are adequate.
  
  i cant w8 to see sonys spin to justify installs when games are put onto the 25 and 50gig blu-rays and all require installs due to the 2x blu-ray rom drive.
  
  http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
  
  Originally posted by Bizarre game devs: Disc-oh?
  Wrong end of stick been grasped?
  Wednesday, August 01 2007
  
  As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...
  
  When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.
  
  The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.
  
  Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!
  
  
  We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.
  
  Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.
  

  2.8.2007 05:15 #17

• NexGen76

  Quote:what a load of fud from sony as usual. if the blu-ray is so important because of larger games please someone tell me why oblivion has to install 5gig of data onto the hard drive to play it, if it requires an install surly 2 dvd9's are adequate.
  
  i cant w8 to see sonys spin to justify installs when games are put onto the 25 and 50gig blu-rays and all require installs due to the 2x blu-ray rom drive.
  
  http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
  
  Originally posted by Bizarre game devs: Disc-oh?
  Wrong end of stick been grasped?
  Wednesday, August 01 2007
  
  As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...
  
  When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.
  
  The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.
  
  Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!
  
  
  We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.
  
  Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.
  
  If you did your homework you would know that the reason it install data on the HD is to access the data quicker which isn't a problem because PS3 now comes with a HD no less than 60gig unlike that small ass 20 gig 360.I have 12 PS3 game data saves on my PS3 & it isn't over 3 gigs yet.I don't know where you got info that oblivion install 5 gig of data because that isn't true.If this was so much of a problem why is load times & graphic on oblivion better on the PS3?????
  
  Originally posted by riotard: As for this 'Lair' game never bloody heard of it! 25GB! lol what did they use no compressiosn what so ever!You can only compress something so much but to compress 25gig into 9 gigs will never happen to small.

  2.8.2007 06:21 #18

• plutonash

  I have also never heard of liar or whatever the hell it name was.

  2.8.2007 07:01 #19

• hughjars

  Quote:We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
  
  - End of discussion.
  
  Blu-ray (as Sony execs have admitted) was included in PS3 to push Blu-ray.
  The idea that it's 'needed' as a gaming media is sheer fantasy from the fanclub desperate to believe they are not being used.
  
  The notion of a 50gb DL Blu-ray disc actually being needed is pure invention, at best this revolves around a SL 25gb disc
  (which incidentally is the type of media used on the majority of Blu-ray movie discs to date.......
  
  Single layer Blu-ray 25gb discs released so far: 169
  (out of around 275 titles released to date)
  
  111 - MPEG-2
  23 - AVC
  35 - VC-1
  http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php ).
  
  BD will simply be used to pad out 25gb discs with filler & tedious FMV.
  If that's your idea of 'vital' game content then work away, the rest of us will stick to reality and keep off of that Kool-aid.
  
  2 (or even 3) 8.5gb DVD9 (so 3x is bigger than a SL 25gb BD disc) has yet to be seriously used with Pcs never mind consoles and with decent sized HDDs now around for consoles it is the cheapest & easiest option by far.

  2.8.2007 07:15 #20

• NexGen76

  Originally posted by hughjars: BD will simply be used to pad out 25gb discs with filler & tedious FMV.
  If that's your idea of 'vital' game content then work away, the rest of us will stick to reality and keep off of that Kool-aid.I guess you didn't read this part.
  
  Quote:Next generation games simply need more space on the disc to contain all that high definition contentBecause PS3 use a BD disc doesn't mean that there is going to be more content.There is more to the reason of why there is a need for a bigger disc other than more game content,EX: audio also that takes up alot of space.This mean that games in the future not only can get bigger but can be fully polished without Dev's worrying about space.Give me a more polished game with full HD content & HD audio over a game thats bigger any day.
  
  Originally posted by hughjars: 2 (or even 3) 8.5gb DVD9 (so 3x is bigger than a SL 25gb BD disc) has yet to be seriously used with Pcs never mind consoles and with decent sized HDDs now around for consoles it is the cheapest & easiest option by far.Multiple discs means more in production and manufacturing costs. Greedy ass Microsoft does NOT wanna eat the cost of their mistake of making games on DVD9s... they will pass on the expense to the consumer and eventually force you into buying a newer large and ultra expensive proprietary hard drive from them.With their current hard drives being triple the cost of standard HDDs per GB... plan to be raped yet again by MS

  2.8.2007 08:32 #21

• NexGen76

  Quote:what a load of fud from sony as usual. if the blu-ray is so important because of larger games please someone tell me why oblivion has to install 5gig of data onto the hard drive to play it, if it requires an install surly 2 dvd9's are adequate.
  
  i cant w8 to see sonys spin to justify installs when games are put onto the 25 and 50gig blu-rays and all require installs due to the 2x blu-ray rom drive.
  
  http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
  
  Originally posted by Bizarre game devs: Disc-oh?
  Wrong end of stick been grasped?
  Wednesday, August 01 2007
  
  As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...
  
  When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.
  
  The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.
  
  Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!
  
  
  We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.
  
  Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.
  
  Source: Future Xbox 360 games to require hard drive
  by GamePro Staff | 08/02/2007 | 8:46:09 AM PST
  
  * print
  * comments [ 79 ]
  * digg this!
  * Share on Facebook
  
  Enthusiast site Xbox Family reports that Microsoft will require a hard drive for certain Xbox 360 games due to the limiting size of 9 GB DVDs and unnecessary load times
  
  Lmao just came out today.
  
  http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=127148

  2.8.2007 08:52 #22

• SProdigy

  HUH? I read the Bizarre Creations comments on another site, and they said the opposite of what Sony's claiming: DVD-9 is PLENTY for a next generation game!

  2.8.2007 10:38 #23

• nobrainer

  Originally posted by SProdigy: HUH? I read the Bizarre Creations comments on another site, and they said the opposite of what Sony's claiming: DVD-9 is PLENTY for a next generation game!the quote is in my previous post but nextgen76 is a bit of a fanboy and failed to pick up on that, choosing to clarify why the ps3 has to put 5gig of oblivion data to the hard drive because the blu-ray 2x rom is tooooo slow with poor seek times to be able to send uncompressed data from the rom instead it has to read from the hard drive.
  
  Q. if you have to install a game on the ps3 does it matter what medium the game is shipped on?

  2.8.2007 12:10 #24

• NexGen76

  Quote:Originally posted by SProdigy: HUH? I read the Bizarre Creations comments on another site, and they said the opposite of what Sony's claiming: DVD-9 is PLENTY for a next generation game!the quote is in my previous post but nextgen76 is a bit of a fanboy and failed to pick up on that, choosing to clarify why the ps3 has to put 5gig of oblivion data to the hard drive because the blu-ray 2x rom is tooooo slow with poor seek times to be able to send uncompressed data from the rom instead it has to read from the hard drive.
  
  Q. if you have to install a game on the ps3 does it matter what medium the game is shipped on?
  Please read before you post because you couldn't read what i wrote.You comparing apples to oranges.Also you might what to read this before you go on your xbot rant.
  
  Source: Future Xbox 360 games to require hard drive
  by GamePro Staff | 08/02/2007 | 8:46:09 AM PST
  
  http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=127148

  2.8.2007 12:55 #25

• borhan9

  I think that yes games would be heading this way if you want a top line game these days you need to be on the latest technology and yes it will take longer than usual to produce and release.

  2.8.2007 17:19 #26

• OzMick

  Originally posted by borhan9: I think that yes games would be heading this way if you want a top line game these days you need to be on the latest technology and yes it will take longer than usual to produce and release.Not really. I'd be ok with the situation if it was that way, but at the moment it is just a cop out and an excuse for the console MANUFACTURER. In reality, the development tools should evolve with the hardware, so development shouldn't be significantly harder or more time consuming. From a lot of the stuff I've heard, Sony's development tools just aren't a match for Microsoft's, the end result being that although the PS3 hardware is by far superior, in the same time (even after initial learning curve) you can produce similar results, and in an age when time is money, it is often better to put out two really good games as opposed to one awesome one. If the actual gameplay and story etc are quality, I'm ok with that. And then if you have a larger install base, the effects are multiplied.
  

  "I love it when a plan comes together..."
  John "Hannibal" Smith

  2.8.2007 17:34 #27

• nobrainer

  Originally posted by NexGen76 : Quote:Originally posted by : HUH? I read the Bizarre Creations comments on another site, and they said the opposite of what Sony's claiming: DVD-9 is PLENTY for a next generation game!the quote is in my previous post but nextgen76 is a bit of a fanboy and failed to pick up on that, choosing to clarify why the ps3 has to put 5gig of oblivion data to the hard drive because the blu-ray 2x rom is tooooo slow with poor seek times to be able to send uncompressed data from the rom instead it has to read from the hard drive.
  
  Q. if you have to install a game on the ps3 does it matter what medium the game is shipped on?
  Please read before you post because you couldn't read what i wrote.You comparing apples to oranges.Also you might what to read this before you go on your xbot rant.
  
  Source: Future Xbox 360 games to require hard drive
  by GamePro Staff | 08/02/2007 | 8:46:09 AM PST
  
  " target="_blank">http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=127148
  
  @ fanboy NexGen76 please try to read my post this time!
  
  ok now where did i post anything about the xbox?
  
  i am replying to the forum topic: Sony cites PGR4 when saying Blu-ray investment was justified
  
  ok so if the blu-ray was a necessity why does it install 5 gig of oblivion to enable you to play it, 5 gig is more than half the game its not just caching.
  
  if you have to install a game because the blu-ray is not upto the job because of speed issues how can sony justify that blu-ray was worth it if devs have to install the games, surly it may as well have been shipped on 2 dvd9's?

  3.8.2007 13:43 #28