AfterDawn: News

Next-gen format war is officially over

First reported by the Japanese public broadcaster NHK and later confirmed by Toshiba itself, the next-gen format war between HD DVD and Blu-ray is finally over, with Toshiba planning on stopping production of HD DVD players.

The battle, which has raged on for the last couple of years, has often been compared to the Betamax-VHS battle of the MID 1980's and has slowed down the development of what movie studios hope will become a multi-billion dollar industry over the next decade.



The final blow to HD DVD and Toshiba took place yesterday when the mammoth retailer Wal-Mart announced they would go Blu-ray exclusive beginning in June. Other recent news, such as Best Buy and Netflix's decisions to support Blu-ray must have also weighed heavily on Toshiba's decision.

"We have entered the final stage of planning to make our exit from the next generation DVD business," said a Toshiba source, who also added that an official announcement could come as early as next week.

We will keep you updated on any word from Microsoft, Paramount, or Universal as to this latest word from Toshiba but for now it seems that all that can be said is R.I.P HD DVD.



Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 16 Feb 2008 14:25

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• 112 comments

• Puksi

  Great news! \o/

  16.2.2008 14:30 #1

• philixir

  As an owner of an XBOX 360, I sure do hope that microsoft does come out with an attachment for the 360 to play blue-ray discs.
  
  But then again... It would still be nice to have both a PS3 and a 360.
  
  I'm sure there will be a lot of pissed off consumers that have spent a fair chunk of change on the attachment, and now it will become obsolete.
  
  Oh well, might as well spend twice as much and have both!!

  16.2.2008 14:32 #2

• DVDBack23

  Originally posted by philixir:
  
  Oh well, might as well spend twice as much and have both!!Exactly. Remember that there are over 500 HD DVD titles available so it isnt as if all is lost :)

  16.2.2008 14:35 #3

• AXT

  Finally. In the end people who purchased HD-DVD are SOL. What different outcome would have been if M$ had included a HD-DVD standard in their box? Guess we will never know.

  16.2.2008 14:45 #4

• 7thsinger

  Quote:What different outcome would have been if M$ had included a HD-DVD standard in their box? Guess we will never knowI don't think that would've mattered much. It was a strategy game by both Camps. Consumer response had little, if anything, to do with it.
  
  *sighs*
  
  Makes me wanna dust off the old BetaMax...
  

  
  
  
  
  
  
  "Sir, i would not harm thee for the world, but thou art standing where i'm about to shoot."

  16.2.2008 14:49 #5

• nobrainer

  MPAA Pro DRM lobby backed, anti consumer laden blu-ray becomes the format chosen by Hollywood what a surprise.
  
  lets count the days until we see any more bogof (buy one get one free)offers from the blu-ray camp or 6 free and such like!
  
  
  

  The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
  
  The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
  
  The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!
  
  The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.
  
  How do you stop anti consumer = its easy purchase only second hand media and avoid their propertarian hobbled by DRM hardware! http://www.boycott-riaa.com/

  16.2.2008 14:58 #6

• trexxus

  I bought my HD DVD player a little over 3 months ago and might have 6 movies or so.I guess that I can use it to upconvert my dvds but that kinda sucks that Toshiba is throwing in the towel but I kinda seen it coming.

  16.2.2008 15:04 #7

• m3_chris

  Originally posted by nobrainer:
  
  lets count the days until we see any more bogof (buy one get one free)offers from the blu-ray camp or 6 free and such like!If they plan to take on standard DVD next I would suggest they continue to do so!
  
  How soon will we see paramount movies now that their contract with HD-DVD is probably void?

  16.2.2008 15:10 #8

• svtstang

  Hasnt the format war really been over since CES when the HD-DVD camp had nothing to show? Either way I am glad I have not bought into either format, hopefully stand alone bluray players will drop in price soon and I will finally be able to pick one up!
  
  Off topic, any bets on how many bans this thread will produce?? I say 4 :)

  16.2.2008 15:28 #9

• ZoSoIV

  the wrong format won again screw Sony!
  

  
  

  16.2.2008 15:50 #10

• Ludikhris

  I think that it would have been a totally different story if the 360 had the HDDVD built in. Sure 360 sales would have been much lower (yes they would, don't argue, it would have been way more money to make). However it would have made this war take a lot longer because there would have been tons more HDDVD disc sales. The way this whole thing worked PS3 was able to tip the disc sales in BR's favor. If you only counted discs bought by those that owned by standalone owners I am guessing HDDVD would have been way ahead.
  
  Good strategy won BR the prize. It was not just Hollywood choosing, it was both them Sony buying a small handful of companies allegiance (Toshiba did this too) and the consumer simply buying more BR discs than HDDVD.
  
  Time to move on guys.... I will be buying more BR discs for my PS3 now. I hesitated and only bought 2 because I wanted to see how this whole thing panned out. Glad it went in my favor. BR is not less consumer friendly as many have claimed. I put a disc in my PS3, I watch a movie in 1080p with crystal clear audio, objective met.
  
  If HDDVD would have won it would have just cost me a couple hundred more in a new player thats all. That's all it means for those that need to go to BR now. It isn't the end of the world.

  16.2.2008 15:51 #11

• arcanix

  Good riddance.
  
  
  

  16.2.2008 15:52 #12

• axemurder

  Originally posted by arcanix: Good riddance.
  
  
  
  
  
  NICE

  16.2.2008 16:14 #13

• xyqo

  FINALLY time to move on and cut the crap it's over and thats it :)
  It doesn't matter which ship sank as long as one of them did. So lets hope BR is ready to take on downloads.

  16.2.2008 16:17 #14

• hughjars

  Blu-ray will win the PS3 market but that's about all IMO.
  The true a/v mass-market is simply not interested in a game console @ $400/£300.
  
  Sadly if HD DVD has bowed out (and there is still no official word) then it merely means optical disc based HDMs are stuck in the niche.
  
  Blu-ray doesn't even have a proper stand-alone player at the full spec yet - never-mind a decent range of players & prices.
  Don't expect them this year either
  (if the profile 1.1 delays and the Denon comments & delays are anything to go by).
  
  I'd also add a word of warning to current HD DVD owners planning on dumping their stuff.
  
  My selfish side says 'go ahead' sell me the lot, I'm very happily still buying.
  But my more altruistic side says 'stop and think about this guys'.
  
  There is no guarantee that all your exclusive HD DVD movies will ever appear on Blu-ray.
  Some sales on HD DVD were low and provide little incentive for anyone to risk the cost of Blu-ray transfer & production.
  
  Just something to think about.

  16.2.2008 16:22 #15

• Craftybox

  Never thought i would hear this but it was due...
  
  well done to Blue ray , i thought it was over when they released the BR player with the ps3.
  
  remember the public never choose blue-ray , it was a game of chess
  and the movie studios were the pieces.
  
  UL to anyone who brought HD DVD, only good thing there DVD will be really cheap :D lol

  16.2.2008 16:23 #16

• iamgq

  Originally posted by arcanix: Good riddance.
  
  
  Too funny...

  16.2.2008 16:46 #17

• SProdigy

  I still don't understand why everyone thinks this was a Sony vs. MS or PS3 vs. 360 war. It was 2 formats supported by a handful of companies on each side and a lot of "tweeners".
  
  On the flipside, if this story comes to fruition and HD-DVD is "sunk" then I think Sony is grinning from ear-to-ear at how many people are going to find the "extra value" they've been squawking about with the PS3 having Blu-Ray playback. I see the PS3 coming down in price, but the stand alone boxes sticking around or above the cost of a PS3 so they can effectively shove more systems in houses and persuade more movie studios and game publishers to flock to the PS3, giving Sony more royalties in the end, and stagnating creativity and competitiveness.

  16.2.2008 16:57 #18

• jagstilv

  Hopefully this will be followed up with an announcment from Universal and Paramount stating that they'll start production of BD movies soon. Glad to see this format war coming to an end and now hopefully with a clear format the industry can move forward more quickly. I agree with some of you that Sony & Co. need to hurry up and finish the BD profiles standards. For now I will stick with my PS3 as my BD disc player until the profile is worked out.

  16.2.2008 17:16 #19

• atomicxl

  Well, until stand alone players are $150 or less, torrents will be my HD format of choice. Sony sells out of spec players for like $500+. Now that they are the only people out there, i'm guessing in-spec players will be $150 around 2011.

  16.2.2008 17:30 #20

• Dela

  Consumers lost!

  16.2.2008 17:56 #21

• domie

  Originally posted by Dela: Consumers lost!They lost by choosing and expressing their preference ?
  
  No matter how many claims, counterclaims, arguments, rumours of insider deals etc , at the end of the day - from Warner to Netflix to Target to Wal-Mart, all clearly stated ( and could prove it with sales figures ) that they went for blu ray because that is what the majority of the people buyng these discs wanted. Even in the states more blu ray discs were sold than HD-DVD despite the price of hardware and number of HD_DVD machines shifted. 81 % of all High Def discs sold in Europe have been blu ray since the beginning and it is over 90 % in Japan and Asia.
  
  I think what you mean to say is that HD-DVD supporters lost, if they didn't sell enough discs to keep the retailers interested whose fault is that ?
  
  If the consumer lost then the consumer chose to lose and that doesn't make sense to me and neither do I believe it.

  16.2.2008 18:11 #22

• plutonash

  Quick question what about the people that got HD-DVD players over the holidays and mail out for the 5 Free Movies are we just SOL.

  16.2.2008 18:15 #23

• limelight

  This is why I wait a while before buying one format over another. I cant imagine how pissed all the people that bought hd-dvd players. Oh well.

  16.2.2008 18:17 #24

• DoomLight

  good thing i didnt buy the attachment. but who cares.
  
  the movies still cost to much in my opinion and regular DVD
  
  has many years left on its lifespan.

  16.2.2008 18:22 #25

• djeazyg

  Nice to see hughjars loyal to the end. May your last paycheck be a large one. If I was you I would jump on the side for Digital Downloads next because that is where the future lies. And I would be willing to bet that reality is a lot closer than you think. Probably before Blu-Ray has a chance to become standard. The only thing slowing it down is Piracy. Too easy to steal a Digital Download. This will be fun to watch.
  
  This was really over before it began. If Microsoft had included HD-DVD into the 360 Blu-Ray would have never stood a chance. Including Blu-Ray into the PS3 was the smartest move Sony could have made to win this battle. Also it will hopefully generate more interest to create exclusive games for the PS3.
  
  You can cry.... Quote:MPAA Pro DRM lobby backed, anti consumer laden blu-rayall you want. You would be saying the same thing about HD-DVD if HD-DVD had won this battle. They would have just included it after the war was over. Anybody that thinks any different is a fool.
  
  If I'm not mistaken this is the first format war Sony won? First out of 3 or 4 or whatever. Not a good track record but it makes me happy.

  16.2.2008 18:23 #26

• PetahG

  Originally posted by ZoSoIV: the wrong format won again screw Sony!Took the words out of my mouth

  16.2.2008 18:56 #27

• pomelo

  I hope Blu Ray does a combo pack like HD-DVD. You know Blu-Ray on one side the DVD version on the other side.

  16.2.2008 19:24 #28

• error5

  Toshiba have no one else to blame but themselves.
  
  The BluRay group just outplayed and outwitted them throughout the game. They had the better strategy and made all the right moves at the right time.
  
  A couple of factors that I see here were crucial:
  
  1. The right industry connections.
  
  You can argue about payoffs and bribes all day long but whether or not these happened is beside the point. The BluRay group reached out to the right studios and the right retailers. They did what it took to keep the right players on their side.
  
  2. Marketing
  
  The Toshiba "source" could not have said it any better:
  
  Quote:"Marketing was a weak point for Toshiba. We learned a lot from HD DVD. Strengthening marketing will continue to be an issue for us going forward," the source said.http://www.reuters.com/article/businessN...ndChannel=10010
  
  Business and management students will study the events of the format war and will learn a lesson on how not to lose with a superior product.

  16.2.2008 19:31 #29

• robmill

  Format wars, when will these companies learn, WHY CANT WE ALL JUST LEARN HOW TO GET ALONG.
  
  Beta/VHS Winner VHS
  CD replaced Cassette so its not a format war
  CD/MD Winner CD Sony should have released MD sooner
  SACD/DVD-A Tie
  BlueRay/HDDVD Winner BlueRay
  
  I am rather happy about whats happening. The Toshiba Players are great players which up convert nicely at a good price, 130 is not a lot to spend on a player with the capabilites it has, as a matter of fact, we just bought two more after this announcement.
  
  This may sound weird, but has anybody thought of this as the reason for BlueRay coming up the winner.
  
  BLUERAY - just sounds so cool, We have DVDs and Toshiba releases something called HD-DVD, hohum, but BLUERAY, sounds impressive, and from a marketing standpoint it makes sense.
  
  Think of it, VHS versus Beta, no one had any idea what VHS was, Sony had this format called Beta, isn't Beta the SECOND letter, Alpha Beta etc etc,,,,,,,,,so does that mean Beta was second to VHS. Lets face it Beta was the better format, smaller, better picture quality, better sound quality.
  
  CD was light years ahead of Cassette, DIGITAL, but then Sony releases MD, which really exactly what it is MINI DISC, and its in its own little case, smaller, protected, now we have HDMD 1gb discs, for those of us still using the format, WOW, 1 gb of music on a 3 dollar disc.
  
  No point just rambling thoughts.
  
  Like I have always said, unless the general public can buy it at Walmart or KMart it won't be anything more than a niche.
  
  Robert

  16.2.2008 19:35 #30

• pomelo

  I brought a HD-DVD in Dec. and still haven't got my 7 fre movies yet. I got a total of 13 HD-DVD movies if I get the 7 free one's I'll have 20.

  16.2.2008 19:41 #31

• redux79

  Well at least now we can all stop bickering over what’s better and why. I myself made several posts defending my position and questioning others... which inevitably lead nowhere. Blu-ray won so now maybe we can all come together and discuss a common enemy BD+.

  16.2.2008 19:43 #32

• hughjars

  Originally posted by pomelo: I hope Blu Ray does a combo pack like HD-DVD. You know Blu-Ray on one side the DVD version on the other side. - This is just another missing piece of the puzzle Blu-ray can never have.
  
  They have no rights to DVD & so they can't release their own version of the Twin disc or combo disc with anything 'DVD'.
  
  There is no technical obstacle for them doing this but -
  unless the BDA paid off the DVD Forum a stunningly vast amount of money - they cannot.
  IIRC they have developed prototypes but can't do anything with the tech.
  
  This is due to - get the irony of this - the ownership & intellectual property rights to DVD that the DVD Forum holds!
  
  I have no doubt that the BDA would love to be able to do this
  (cos it is a huge key part of the high def formats going mass-market IMO)
  but after the stunts they just pulled on the DVD Forium's baby (HD DVD) I think it's much more likely we'll all live to see hell freezing over 1st.

  16.2.2008 19:48 #33

• domie

  Quote:Originally posted by pomelo: I hope Blu Ray does a combo pack like HD-DVD. You know Blu-Ray on one side the DVD version on the other side.
  but after the stunts they just pulled on the DVD Forium's baby (HD DVD) I think it's much more likely we'll all live to see hell freezing over 1st.what you say is true but I really can't see the DVD Forum cutting off their own nose to spit their face just because Blu Ray was chosen over their own HD-DVD baby. it seems unlikely they will let childish pride stop them from joining up with blu ray to expand their profit making potential... money talks.

  16.2.2008 20:16 #34

• error5

  Originally posted by pomelo: I hope Blu Ray does a combo pack like HD-DVD. You know Blu-Ray on one side the DVD version on the other side.Combo releases have a tendency of bringing out the worst in my HD DVD players - skipping, stuttering and other more severe playback problems requiring firmware updates. I'd rather not have the same experience on BluRay.
  
  Instead of a combo I prefer a "digital copy" like what they have on the upcoming BluRay release of Hitman:
  
  http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/sho...gital_Copy/1395
  
  The second disc contains a standard def digital copy of the movie that you can play in your PC, laptop, iPod or iPhone.

  16.2.2008 20:23 #35

• hade

  too many times i read posts stating "sony + format = failure, etc"
  
  people never fully understood the strategic implementation of what has become the "playstation effect."
  
  people can continue to complain and make absurd comments about the format being that of a gaming niche, but unfortunately those comments come from individuals who have consistently made FALSE assumptions/predictions. a person having substantial knowledge on a particular subject does not necessarily mean that said person is intelligent. the DOTS never quite lined up for some. oh well.
  
  The "cheap" chinese players never came, there was no HUGE ANNOUNCEMENT at CES for HD-DVD, the constant price drops did little, the Disney vote (again did nothing), the 51gg disc never factored into anything, the proclaimed SuperBowl AD was MIA in different areas (also nothing worthy but w/e) and the list goes on.
  
  im sorry but for those who still think blu-ray will be a gamers format are simply in denial. Warner/Disney/Fox/Sony/LionsGate/Pioneer/ ETC. all feel the format is something MORE than just a niche product, but hey lets take JOE BLOWs ASSumptions instead. hahaha.
  
  argue all you want but the writing is on the wall and it sure doesn't spell out the crap that is going around on here.
  
  Toshiba will make a very nice Blu-ray player.
  
  relax, take a few deep breaths and come back to reality. no one really wants to call the WAMBULANCE. its OVER.
  
  it'll be interesting to see how many people jump on the downloads bandwagon.

  16.2.2008 20:32 #36

• casemodd

  Does this mean the movie "Transformers" will finally come out on bluray?

  16.2.2008 20:37 #37

• hade

  Originally posted by casemodd: Does this mean the movie "Transformers" will finally come out on bluray?there are already reports of a CircuitCity employee leak about Transformers on Blu-ray. nothing is OFFICIAL YET, but i feel pretty confident in saying Transformers will be out on Blu
  
  Link

  16.2.2008 20:48 #38

• casemodd

  That would really be great :) Looks like i will wait for the profile 2.0 for bluray. I don't want my new shiny blu disks being bricked.

  16.2.2008 20:58 #39

• ChiknLitl

  Mark my words: We will all rue this day! When BR+ is fully implemented and we can no longer back-up, copy, or steal these movies (whatever context you want to put it in) we will be very disappointed! I certainly am.

  16.2.2008 21:12 #40

• i1der

  Quote:hughjars
  edited...do it again and take a break from AD

  16.2.2008 21:50 #41

• i1der

  Quote:hughjarsBtw... Bow to your master(sony)!!!
  
  You where warned ~ Oner

  16.2.2008 22:14 #42

• carp624

  LMAO hurrah for sony and the ps3 fanboys . So now I have to buy yet 1 more device for the stack . But at no TIME will I BUY a thing That says SONY on the LABEL .
  After Their VP Said that copying my store bought cd to my computer
  was stealing . i vote with my wallet and sony gets nothing.
  BTW I am a 46 y.o. adult , the first game system i ever bought was pong. The first Computer system i ever used was a keyboard with a built in modem . I have seen the changes in the digital world from the beginning of the age to the present.

  16.2.2008 22:17 #43

• NexGen76

  Originally posted by ChiknLitl: Mark my words: We will all rue this day! When BR+ is fully implemented and we can no longer back-up, copy, or steal these movies (whatever context you want to put it in) we will be very disappointed! I certainly am.What possible need do you have to backup a BD disc now? With the protective coating that comes on BD.There isn't any need to back them up.Plus disc owner's need to be more responsible taking care of there disc.

  16.2.2008 22:48 #44

• carp624

  gee how silly of me to want to be able to back up my own property.
  i must remember that if i let the dogs eat the disc , then i must run out and give sony more money

  16.2.2008 23:02 #45

• Oner

  Quote:Originally posted by Dela: Consumers lost!They lost by choosing and expressing their preference ?
  
  No matter how many claims, counterclaims, arguments, rumours of insider deals etc , at the end of the day - from Warner to Netflix to Target to Wal-Mart, all clearly stated ( and could prove it with sales figures ) that they went for blu ray because that is what the majority of the people buyng these discs wanted. Even in the states more blu ray discs were sold than HD-DVD despite the price of hardware and number of HD_DVD machines shifted. 81 % of all High Def discs sold in Europe have been blu ray since the beginning and it is over 90 % in Japan and Asia.
  
  I think what you mean to say is that HD-DVD supporters lost, if they didn't sell enough discs to keep the retailers interested whose fault is that ?
  
  If the consumer lost then the consumer chose to lose and that doesn't make sense to me and neither do I believe it.Excellent post. Sorry Dela ;), I happen to agree as I have thought about it that way for the longest too.

  16.2.2008 23:12 #46

• Oner

  Originally posted by ZoSoIV: the wrong format won again screw Sony!If you are referring to Beta vs VHS and VHS winning being the wrong format, you are contradicting yourself. You do realize that Sony backed Beta and if the wrong format won this time around that means by your words Sony should have won both times around.
  

  
  
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  16.2.2008 23:19 #47

• error5

  Originally posted by carp624: But at no TIME will I BUY a thing That says SONY on the LABEL . How about a Panasonic or a Denon? Or even a Pioneer, Sharp, Philips, and Harman Kardon?
  
  The Panasonic DMP-BD30 1.1 profile model is, for me the best bang for the buck BD player right now. However, the upcoming Panasonic DMP-BD50 2.0 model is what I'm on the lookout for.
  
  If you have the funds though, the Denons or the Pioneer Elite are very attractive.
  
  There is even a possibility that Toshiba will be manufacturing a BluRay player in the future. I mean they should seriously consider making one if they don't want to be left behind especially in the Japanese market.
  
  Quote:gee how silly of me to want to be able to back up my own property.i must remember that if i let the dogs eat the disc , then i must run out and give sony more money Consider first the price of a BluRay burner. The cheapest I have seen so far is the $350 Lite On from newegg. There may be cheaper ones but they are still nowhere near regular DVD burner prices.
  
  Consider also the price of blank media. A dual layer 50Gig BD recordable blank disc is $25 - $30. It's cheaper at this point in time to just get a new copy of the movie.
  
  ...and I assume you were kidding when you said you let your dog play with your high def media right?
  
  Just some friendly suggestions.

  16.2.2008 23:24 #48

• viny1313

  Quote:Quote:Originally posted by Dela: Consumers lost!They lost by choosing and expressing their preference ?
  
  No matter how many claims, counterclaims, arguments, rumours of insider deals etc , at the end of the day - from Warner to Netflix to Target to Wal-Mart, all clearly stated ( and could prove it with sales figures ) that they went for blu ray because that is what the majority of the people buyng these discs wanted. Even in the states more blu ray discs were sold than HD-DVD despite the price of hardware and number of HD_DVD machines shifted. 81 % of all High Def discs sold in Europe have been blu ray since the beginning and it is over 90 % in Japan and Asia.
  
  I think what you mean to say is that HD-DVD supporters lost, if they didn't sell enough discs to keep the retailers interested whose fault is that ?
  
  If the consumer lost then the consumer chose to lose and that doesn't make sense to me and neither do I believe it.Excellent post. Sorry Dela ;), I happen to agree as I have thought about it that way for the longest too.I too agree and have always... It's not like Sony forced people to buy their format... That's completely impossible seeing that my money is not theirs and I can do whatever I want with it. They can influence the decision, but they can't make it for you.Maybe if HD-DVD were to make at least 1 ad then hey might have lived... Kinda stupid of them... Their marketing campaign was worse then the PS3's, and I only say that because at least it had commercials (even though they were really weird).
  
  Sorry, I had to post something, I couldn't wait any longer :(

  16.2.2008 23:27 #49

• CaLiMaCk

  hughjars better find a new job. its been a rough year buddy, but in the end you and your bosses lost, i would say GG but you were fighting a losing fight from the jump lol!

  17.2.2008 00:09 #50

• CaLiMaCk

  also Digital is far off, too much hurdles, piracy, low quality, etc. also ISPs are cutting back on bandwith in america. ppl just like having disc they can borrow or lend/resale, etc

  17.2.2008 00:12 #51

• furchtlos

  When sony controls the media, the production, and the content who's interests are being served? why should they bother to innovate?
  
  
  good one consumers. You really f**ked the ones with brains.

  17.2.2008 01:20 #52

• scorpNZ

  Quote:chiknlitl
  Mark my words: We will all rue this day! When BR+ is fully implemented and we can no longer back-up, copy, or steal these movies (whatever context you want to put it in) we will be very disappointed! I certainly am.All is not lost,where there's life there's hope or untill the powers at be get there way,you know of whom i speak of.
  http://www.slysoft.com/en/anydvdhd.html

  17.2.2008 01:35 #53

• Pop_Smith

  Quote:What possible need do you have to backup a BD disc now? With the protective coating that comes on BD.There isn't any need to back them up.Plus disc owner's need to be more responsible taking care of there disc.Actually, at what-is-remaining of my work (CompUSA), we have a Samsung Combo player and despite the gentle handling of the disks every movie that we have playing on Blu (UltraViolet, Spiderman 3 and Open Season) skips due to being scratched. I even tried cleaning the movies for the fun of it to no avail (due to the scratches of course).
  
  Anyway, if Blu-Ray does get mass adoption than eventually the prices on blank media should come down. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony sticks there head in there bottom and price hikes the format due to lack of competition.
  
  Sure vanilla DVD usually is well priced but its not, as far as I know, owned almost completely by a single corporation.
  
  If Sony continues to drop prices on the players and also keeps the prices of the movies at near-vanilla DVD levels then it may actually take over DVD in 3-5 years.
  
  Peace

  17.2.2008 02:29 #54

• hade

  Originally posted by Pop_Smith: Samsung Combo player and despite the gentle handling of the disks every movie that we have playing on Blu (UltraViolet, Spiderman 3 and Open Season) skips due to being scratched
  im sorry but i had to laugh at that, only because i've seen how some people treat their medium and then wonder why it never plays correctly. i can only imagine the care some use when popping in/out movies. im sure most probably don't give 2 shits about the physical medium anyhow...
  
  Originally posted by Pop_Smith: However, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony sticks there head in there bottom and price hikes the format due to lack of competition.
  one must remember that Sony is not the sole evil empire behind this format or the sole distributor of blank medium :0
  
  think about it for a minute. blu-ray does have competition and this is not a monopolistic market. if sony and the studios want mass adoption, which they obviously do as that'll lead to $$$$, then price hikes are probably the LAST thing they would consider.
  
  take a simply demand function (with respect to prices)forget about supply. right now DEMAND is not through the roof which everyone should agree on and people must not forgot that demand is INVERSELY related to price. so yes, an increase in price will lead to a decrease in demand, so why would people feel as if prices are going to be rising when mass adoption is what studios and corporations want?
  
  put your bias aside and since so many like to talk about sony, some should ask themselves, "hey, whens the last time the PS2 raised in price?" why would it be any different?
  
  i may also note that the aftermath to a TEMPORARY PRICE CUT should not be misconstrued as an increase or overall rise in price.

  17.2.2008 03:33 #55

• varnull

  I would like to see this buying off of studios that has been going on come up in front of the anti-competition lawyers.
  
  Anyway, the broadcasters and cable companies are only seeing HD as a cash cow. there isn't enough content to encourage the general public to invest, even with this forced digital switchover I can't see any significant HD market in any format for the next 5 years. By then most of us will be more interested in how much power a 60" plasma screen burns than any thoughts of quality...
  
  Enjoy your drm-ray now won't ya.
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

  17.2.2008 04:16 #56

• juankerr

  Originally posted by varnull: I would like to see this buying off of studios that has been going on come up in front of the anti-competition lawyers.I'm not a lawyer but my guess is HD DVD will get a smaller fine since it only spent $150 million to buy off Paramount. This is compared to the $500 million that BluRay used to buy off Warner.
  
  That's assuming that the buying off can actually be proven, of course.

  17.2.2008 04:25 #57

• varnull

  Something should happen.. Skewing the market against the interests of the consumer is wrong.. M$ have been doing it for years, and then ignoring the antitrust rulings.
  
  as an aside.. did anybody else find this~? http://www.amazon.com/tag/hd%20dvd/forum...Type=tagsDetail
  
  these guys come from my world.. the place where value is more important than branding.. http://www.amazon.com/tag/hd%20dvd/forum...Type=tagsDetail
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

  17.2.2008 04:31 #58

• juankerr

  On second thought, if I were a judge I'd punish HD DVD more for not matching BluRay's offer to Warner thereby assuring that it lost the format war.
  
  But that would be rubbing salt into a wound now, wouldn't it?

  17.2.2008 04:34 #59

• pensfan12

  Quote:Quote:
  Anyway, if Blu-Ray does get mass adoption than eventually the prices on blank media should come down. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony sticks there head in there bottom and price hikes the format due to lack of competition.
  
  
  Have you ever heard of the simple supply and demand curve.
  Before you start bashing Sony at least turn your brain on

  17.2.2008 04:38 #60

• varnull

  They are both guilty of attempted anti-trust behaviour.. sony more so because they have been guilty of it time and time again.
  
  I know a real nub.. he owns a standalone UMD player.. I remember that was going to kill off dvd as well. I'm waiting for the upscaling £19 dvd players to hit the supermarket shelves.. It can't be long before the "chipod" makers like Pacific cotton on to a small potential market among disgruntled HD tv owners who can't get any reasonably priced content.
  
  My nearest film/music shop (not a big chain.. some independent) has 4 blu titles.. 11 HD titles and 17,000 dvd titles.. That's the reality when you get away from the big chains who have taken kickbacks, and they reflect the true market demand. They stock what they think they can sell, not something inflated by studio and manufacturer payments... My local asda doesn't have any hd disks at all,(unless you blu boys count ps3 games..6 titles, not moved since xmas.. you can tell by the dust ;) as films these days) and no plans to get any in the forseeable future... ( I asked when I was buying knock down bread) Niche market?
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

  17.2.2008 04:41 #61

• juankerr

  Originally posted by varnull: Something should happen.. Skewing the market against the interests of the consumer is wrong.. M$ have been doing it for years, and then ignoring the antitrust rulings.Sarcasm aside here's an excerpt from a statement of the EU Antitrust Commission:
  
  Quote:In December 2005 the Commission decided to examine the issues concerning the two formats.
  
  The investigation showed that the market is experiencing a format war based on the merits of the competing formats. In such circumstances, the Commission does not believe that it is its task to take sides in the format war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. The Commission will therefore not interfere in competition for exclusivity contracts currently experienced on the market for new formats and will not second guess the technical choices of film studios.
  Here's whole thread on avsforums discussing this:
  
  http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=994400
  
  Post #48
  Quote:I'm not intimately familiar with the specifics of the EU laws, but they are definitely more pro-consumer than US laws. However, I don't see any real justification for an anti-trust suit in this matter. Mostly because, unlike the MS case, this is dealing with what could be argued as art distribution. There is no requirement for the consumer to purchase these products for business reasons, which was a key driver in the MS ruling. There is less need to have anti-trust laws and rulings protect the consumer's freedom to choose a voluntary medium of entertainment than to be able to perform work on a PC for business reasons.

  17.2.2008 04:54 #62

• pensfan12

  I'm just curious, is it really true that there might not be anyway to copy Blu-Ray discs or will the system be beaten one day?

  17.2.2008 05:52 #63

• nobrainer

  Originally posted by Dela: Consumers lost!couldn't have said it better. at leasts the afterdawn staff know what's going on.
  
  Originally posted by domie: Originally posted by Dela: Consumers lost!They lost by choosing and expressing their preference ?
  
  No matter how many claims, counterclaims, arguments, rumours of insider deals etc , at the end of the day - from Warner to Netflix to Target to Wal-Mart, all clearly stated ( and could prove it with sales figures ) that they went for blu ray because that is what the majority of the people buyng these discs wanted. Even in the states more blu ray discs were sold than HD-DVD despite the price of hardware and number of HD_DVD machines shifted. 81 % of all High Def discs sold in Europe have been blu ray since the beginning and it is over 90 % in Japan and Asia.
  
  I think what you mean to say is that HD-DVD supporters lost, if they didn't sell enough discs to keep the retailers interested whose fault is that ?
  
  If the consumer lost then the consumer chose to lose and that doesn't make sense to me and neither do I believe it.the consumer didn't have a choice as HD sales are less than 3% which is not the consumer deciding.
  
  who decided was the Pro DRM MPAA members, sony, disney and fox who publicly announced that under no circumstances would any content be sold on hd-dvd due to the lack of anti consumer drm on this format and fox also waited until the worst DRM ever conceived was finalised blu-ray exclusive, BD+ that allows studios to run code they wish including phone home ability in profile 2.0 which will include player usage, Ip address & unique serial number of the player.
  
  get ready for pay per film as soon you will no longer own movies you will purchase licences to watch them 5 or so times then have to pay up again.
  
  you may also find the like sony is doing with PSN content that it will be locked to 1 account or one device.
  

  The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
  
  The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
  
  The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!
  
  The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.
  
  How do you stop anti consumer = its easy purchase only second hand media and avoid their propertarian hobbled by DRM hardware! http://www.boycott-riaa.com/

  17.2.2008 06:02 #64

• SamNz

  Originally posted by pensfan12: I'm just curious, is it really true that there might not be anyway to copy Blu-Ray discs or will the system be beaten one day?one day, im just saying that because its hard to find a format that hasn't been cracked, it can be done its just that nobody knows how yet, :)

  17.2.2008 06:04 #65

• llongtheD

  Quote:Originally posted by ChiknLitl: Mark my words: We will all rue this day! When BR+ is fully implemented and we can no longer back-up, copy, or steal these movies (whatever context you want to put it in) we will be very disappointed! I certainly am.What possible need do you have to backup a BD disc now? With the protective coating that comes on BD.There isn't any need to back them up.Plus disc owner's need to be more responsible taking care of there disc.@NexGen76
  So I guess bluray discs are indestructable? Are you a complete idiot?
  In the end it has more to do with buying content that is infested with DRM, pay per view, pay per device. That is the era that bluray will help usher in.

  17.2.2008 06:32 #66

• DjDanio

  Originally posted by carp624: gee how silly of me to want to be able to back up my own property.
  i must remember that if i let the dogs eat the disc , then i must run out and give sony more moneyMate, that would be your own silly fault for having a dog that eats your dvds. Why don't you put them on a shelf or in a cupboard it can't get to.
  
  that would save you alot of time and money tryin to back them up.
  
  Or is it a case of you are too lazy to put them away and want to leave them on the side or floor.

  17.2.2008 07:21 #67

• domie

  Quote:
  the consumer didn't have a choice as HD sales are less than 3% which is not the consumer deciding.
  that to me is the consumer deciding not to get involved with HD discs at the moment - you can't blame the companies involved if people decide not( certainly the vast majority of them ) to go for it en masse - that's their choice - but the point is nobody was physically denied the chance to buy a disc so your argument is illogical - it was a free market if they didn't participate that is their choice.
  
  how many political elections in the free world are decided on 100% voter turn out ? not many - indeed a lot of them have less than 50% turn out - those who don't get involved have only themselves to blame if they don't like the result. the rest probably don't care but you can't accuse sony et al of not listening or giving consumers the choice - what were they supposed to do - keep both formates running for ten years so enough people could wake up and decide ?

  17.2.2008 07:26 #68

• LOCOENG

  llongtheD, have a week for that feeble attempt at a flame. Zero tolerance still stands in the format war threads. There is no war no more so move on....this goes for everyone.
  

  Don't forget about your Buddies The rules ~ http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
  

  17.2.2008 09:33 #69

• hughjars

  Originally posted by CaLiMaCk: hughjars better find a new job. its been a rough year buddy, but in the end you and your bosses lost - If you're going to accuse me of being a paid shill then prove it.
  
  You are quite wrong.

  17.2.2008 11:56 #70

• vinny13

  Quote:Originally posted by CaLiMaCk: hughjars better find a new job. its been a rough year buddy, but in the end you and your bosses lost - If you're going to accuse me of being a paid shill then prove it.
  
  You are quite wrong.So will you be buying a PS3?
  
  I'm not making a joke but now what are you going to do? They're still producing a couple movies for it but that's about it for you guys... Kinda sucks... I'm happy I half-waited (I have a PS3 but I didn't buy it for the Blu-Ray lol).

  17.2.2008 12:38 #71

• scorpNZ

  Quote:Originally posted by pensfan12: I'm just curious, is it really true that there might not be anyway to copy Blu-Ray discs or will the system be beaten one day?one day, im just saying that because its hard to find a format that hasn't been cracked, it can be done its just that nobody knows how yet, :)If your both talking about movies slysofts AnyDVD has support for ripping hd-dvd & blue-ray

  17.2.2008 13:02 #72

• ChiknLitl

  [quoteQuote:@ChiknLitl: Mark my words: We will all rue this day! When BR+ is fully implemented and we can no longer back-up, copy, or steal these movies (whatever context you want to put it in) we will be very disappointed! I certainly am.Quote:@NextGen76: What possible need do you have to backup a BD disc now? With the protective coating that comes on BD.There isn't any need to back them up.Plus disc owner's need to be more responsible taking care of there disc.First, Where the hell is my original post to this article???
  
  
  Second, scorpNZ, thank you for your sympathy. I know both anydvdHD and also the excellent FREE version of dvdfabHD decrypter both remove the AACS protection and HDCP garbage. But I don't think that anyone at the moment has cracked BD+, have they? Not tooo much of a problem right now I guess since it has not been widely implemented. Last I heard anydvdHD was working on some sort of AI to crack the BD+ protection.
  
  Third, NextGen76, disc damage is not the only reason to copy these discs. What about having portable transferrable digital media for iPods, PVP's, HTPC's, or HT servers??? Or just being able to rent and copy? What the hell, I don't have a hard copy of every movie I "own"!

  17.2.2008 13:05 #73

• hughjars

  Originally posted by vinny13: So will you be buying a PS3? - What, is that the way to 'prove' I'm not in the pay of Toshiba or Microsoft now or something, huh?
  
  How many times do I have to say I do not want a(nybody's) game console in my a/v rack?
  (and to make it clear I have no interest in either XBox 360 or PS3 or Wii for that matter)
  
  How many times did I put various points about the clear & inherent anti-consumer qualities in Blu-ray?
  
  Obviously this has just been like footy team support for some.
  'Support' for your favourite CE corp
  (which is a laughably insane concept IMO).
  
  Just because the battle between HD DVD & Blu-ray now looks like it might be over (tho I note there's still no public official word from Toshiba) that does not mean that Blu-ray is suddenly OK.
  
  Blu-ray is specifically designed as an attack on the sharing community.
  I won't give them a dime.
  
  Besides, I just don't need it to get my high def content.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: I'm not making a joke but now what are you going to do? - 1) Enjoy my still growing HD DVD collection
  (at even lower prices)
  2) Enjoy my HD TV services & my DVR
  3) Enjoy my enormous SD DVD collection
  (which is usually upscaled beautifully by my EP 35 - and with a 90:1 advantage in content and zero sign of Blu-ray being even capable of beating SD DVD we'll all be upscaling SD DVD for a long time to come) and
  4) Enjoy either encodes or straight rips downloaded.
  
  High def content is not going to be either hard to come by or in short supply.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: They're still producing a couple movies for it but that's about it for you guys. - Says who?
  
  We have had no word at all on what Universal or Paramount intend to do.
  
  IIRC there are now over 1 million HD DVD players in the USA alone.
  I do not expect them just to turn off the taps, why would they?
  It's not as if HD DVD production is relatively expensive.
  
  There are 450+ HD DVD titles currently available, I own just less than 10% of that number.
  There is still a lot of content I can look forward to.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: I'm happy I half-waited (I have a PS3 but I didn't buy it for the Blu-Ray lol). - Blu-ray can drive up the PS3 niche as much as it likes but that is nothing like genuine mass-market adoption
  (which I honestly do believe is unlikely in the extreme).

  17.2.2008 13:18 #74

• esrever

  This makes me very angry. I had such high hopes for HD-DVD...now how am I going to use my HD-DVD player when they stop making movies for it. God I hate corporations...

  17.2.2008 13:57 #75

• bib1234

  Originally posted by arcanix: Good riddance.
  
  
  very nice
  

  --JB--AKA bib1234

  17.2.2008 14:01 #76

• vinny13

  Paramount and Universal can't do much if they're running out of major stores to sell their movies... They may have not said much but they'll probably at least go dual-format for a year and then just stop production. That makes sense.
  
  For the anti-consumer stuff, only a rich pirate would care, or just some rich guy that makes home movies on Blu-Ray :P
  The profile stuff is pretty lame, but the PS3 seems to be avoiding it as it just got a 1.1 update and probably a 2.0 in the future, so I don't care.
  
  Are the movies really that much cheaper? Like, I understand now with them losing (as it seems) and the sale signs, but last time I checked at the local malls and wal-marts around me, many of the HD-DVD movies were more expensive then BR lol
  
  Oh and isn't it the other way around? I thought the PS3 was driving Blu-Ray :P
  
  Ok, 1 more thing. About this DVD vs. Blu-Ray you keep on bringing up... How could you even say that when not everyone owns HDTVs? And then when people buy HDTVs they're usually offered a Blu-Ray player as it plays both formats in 1080P and makes the store more money. As more and more people learn about it, the more popular it will get, and eventually prices will fall. I guess what I'm trying to say is, Blu-Ray will eventually replace it, just not anyime soon(as it looks so far).

  17.2.2008 14:04 #77

• varnull

  Quote:In December 2005 the Commission decided to examine the issues concerning the two formats.
  
  The investigation showed that the market is experiencing a format war based on the merits of the competing formats. In such circumstances, the Commission does not believe that it is its task to take sides in the format war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. The Commission will therefore not interfere in competition for exclusivity contracts currently experienced on the market for new formats and will not second guess the technical choices of film studios. Now I'm going to pick at this comment a little..
  
  Quote:competition for exclusivity contracts Nowhere does that say that multi million dollar kickbacks are acceptable..
  
  Quote:the technical choices of film studios Seems the only "technical choice" was who is prepared to pay the most to ensure consumers don't get a level playing field on which to base a choice..
  
  I find anti competitive actions by both sides, but the DRM and sony's deep pockets have swayed the issue..
  
  Consumers lose, and I have emailed my MEP with facts about these payments by the hd-dvd group and sony with my complaint about anti-competitive and anti-consumer behaviour.

  17.2.2008 14:24 #78

• Oner

  Originally posted by nobrainer: get ready for pay per film as soon you will no longer own movies you will purchase licences to watch them 5 or so times then have to pay up again.
  
  you may also find the like sony is doing with PSN content that it will be locked to 1 account or one device.
  Wrong. You REALLY need to stop consistently spewing inaccurate and misinformation. You CAN copy/transfer download-able games & titles on up to 5 DIFFERENT PS3's
  
  
  Quote:Jack Tretton told the GameLife blog before the PS3 launch:
  
  "You can send that content to four other friends for that initial investment," said Tretton. "We want to get the game in as many hands as possible. It's not about generating profits at each and every interaction with the consumer. I think that really offsets the argument that says, 'Wow, that's a really pricey system.'"
  This is a perfect example of why I try to stay out of the news posts and especially BD vs HD type threads, since there is no point in even trying to have a discussion as people only seem to want to bash something for some lame reason and when they are shown to be absolutely wrong they ultimately are never willing to admit they are/where wrong! They totally disregard anything that was said and just shift to another point in an attempt to further prove their point which has failed. Seriously, let it go already man. Move on and please do some PROPER research before handing out false information as if truth. You are not helping anyone and are only confusing people for some reason I cannot fathom.
  

  
  
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  17.2.2008 14:30 #79

• hughjars

  Originally posted by vinny13: Paramount and Universal can't do much if they're running out of major stores to sell their movies. - I think you'll find that on-line sales are the preferred choice for the early adopter with this media anyways.
  It's the one way of getting it at anything like a sensible price, always has been and now undoubtedly always will be.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: They may have not said much but they'll probably at least go dual-format for a year and then just stop production. That makes sense. - Does it?
  
  In fact they have not said anything except that are continuing to support HD DVD.
  
  If HD DVD production costs are low to start with and they have already paid & the discs in production anyways why would they just drop production?
  That in fact doesn't make sense.
  They would surely look to maximise their return on their existing investment(s)?
  
  With over 450 HD DVD titles in western markets (& IIRC 800+ worldwide) why should they just drop production?
  It would be different if HD DVD production required new & expensive lines (:P) but it does not.
  
  If anything the demand for their titles could well go up, people like myself will not stop buying and have a large catalogue (and it has to be said one with a lot of cinema classics) to continue to choose from.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: For the anti-consumer stuff, only a rich pirate would care - You have obviously never bought and legitimately paid for a piece of regular new PC kit only to find that the DRM in the software you wish to legitimately use it with has not been updated and will not allow you to use the part(s).
  You can be kept waiting a long time for updates to do what you have properly paid for.
  
  To pretend that DRM only affects 'pirates' is a flat-out lie and the more complicated it all gets the more compatbility issues and problems we encounter.
  
  Bet you complain about Vista for this.....or is it somehow different when it comes to Microsoft
  (or should that be M$, hmmmmm)?
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: or just some rich guy that makes home movies on Blu-Ray - The inability of Blu-ray stand-alones to play BD -R & BD -RE discs is hardly something only home movie enthusiasts will be bothered about.
  
  But it is funny how they are keeping that side of Blu-ray as quiet as they can.
  
  Once people find out it is not just a 'bigger better DVD' they will start to turn right off of the idea & stop going anywhere near it.
  
  You can laugh at this idea all you like but the huge DVD burner & blank media sales support my view, not yours.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: The profile stuff is pretty lame, but the PS3 seems to be avoiding it as it just got a 1.1 update and probably a 2.0 in the future, so I don't care. - That's great if you want a game console.
  
  Lots of a/v enthusiasts will never go for a game console to play their movies.
  
  It's also such a waste
  (and a growing number of people do give a damn about this even if the PS3 gang don't).
  125w - 195w energy consumption compared to a stand-alone's typical 25w.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: Are the movies really that much cheaper? - I have been getting mine at $14 - $19 recently & some UK sales at £12, including delivery.
  That works out to close to or less than what I'd have to pay on a new big release DVD.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: Like, I understand now with them losing (as it seems) and the sale signs, but last time I checked at the local malls and wal-marts around me, many of the HD-DVD movies were more expensive then BR - Combos discs were more expensive for a while but generally speaking and comparing like with like that was simply not true.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: Oh and isn't it the other way around? I thought the PS3 was driving Blu-Ray - You seem to be misunderstanding me.
  More PS3 sales = more Blu-ray players in the PS3 niche.
  
  No matter how much you want to imagine otherwise the game console segment the PS3 occupies is tiny compared to the wider a/v market.
  
  Huge numbers of many people's parents and grandparents (assuming they are still around and compus mentis) have DVDs, they do not have PS2s or PS3s and never will have.
  That is the extent of the real & vast mass-market Blu-ray is IMO unlikely in the extreme to ever reach.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: Ok, 1 more thing. About this DVD vs. Blu-Ray you keep on bringing up... How could you even say that when not everyone owns HDTVs? - All you're doing there is high-lighting a weakness in the Blu-ray possibilities.
  
  Blu-ray must either ultimately stay in the niche or try and over-take DVD.
  
  The speed of the uptake of HD TV merely adds to Blu-ray's problems (as does the fact that 'HD on your HD TV all the time' TV services witha DVR are ensuring that the kind of market DVD had isn't even there for Blu-ray to have anymore anyways.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: And then when people buy HDTVs they're usually offered a Blu-Ray player as it plays both formats in 1080P and makes the store more money. - This is pure fantasy.
  They were trying to give away (profile 1.0) Blu-ray players recently.
  
  Nevertheless there is no indication that anybody but Sky HD & some cable suppliers are profiting from the bulk of HD TV sales presently.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: As more and more people learn about it, the more popular it will get, and eventually prices will fall. - You have that absolutely the wrong way around.
  
  Prices have to fall sharply before too many take the slightest bit of interest.
  
  The sad truth high def enthusiasts have a problem with grasping is that they are not typical and not everyone agrees with their priorities or POV.
  
  It's obvious that the general public are not in the slightest bit interested in high def or the new audio standards, not at the cost they come at.
  'Most people' do not have the audio kit required (and never will have) and are not fussed about paying for the image quality they often discribe as being little differnt to upscaled DVD.
  
  But given that the majority of HD TV sales are in the 32" - 50" range it's no surprise that they do not find the difference in image quality 'worth' the several hundred pounds/dollars expected for the player nor do they show the slightest bit of interest in paying high prices for the movies when they can get a much bigger selection of SD DVD movies at a fraction of the cost.
  
  It's not about there being 'no difference' clearly there is; it's about too many people not caring to pay a lot of money for what they see as a minimal difference.
  
  Originally posted by vinny13: I guess what I'm trying to say is, Blu-Ray will eventually replace it, just not anyime soon(as it looks so far). - Well you won't be surprised to hear that I couldn't disagree more.

  17.2.2008 14:59 #80

• vinny13

  Meh,I'm not gonna bother... You have some sort of comeback for everything :P

  17.2.2008 15:51 #81

• varnull

  hehehe.. nicely done there hughjars ;)
  

  
  
  Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work.... Commercial "pay for" software = made by software developers who want paying... see where I'm going with this?

  17.2.2008 15:55 #82

• cd-rw.org

  This so called "format war" was bullshit from the beginning. It just became fashionable in the biased media to bash Sony/Blu-ray and hype the war and promote unrealistic hope for HD DVD. It is not always a good thing that on the Internet all kinds of amateurs can publish and act as a "journalist"...
  
  Blu-ray camp was simply much stronger to begin with. It was a David vs Goliath deathmatch and the Goliath wins more than 9 times out of 10.
  
  The real "war" is to push another plastic disc format to become mainstream. The benefits of Blu-ray (or HD DVD) vs. DVD are evolutionary, but definitely not revolutionary. Disc as a physical medium is not the most practical one, so it may well be that Blu-ray will never achieve the success of DVD. Solid state technology is evolving fast, and so are download based solutions.
  

  http://www.BitBurners.com
  We Burn a Bit

  17.2.2008 16:17 #83

• UkWizard

  Well done sony you have won the war thanx to the ps3 having blu-ray built in, a massive strategy that has killed hd-dvd. You may have won the disc format war but as long as microsoft are about, you will have trouble winning a console war again. Sony don't have much power compared to microsoft. What we need to kill sony is for nintendo and microsoft to join forces and the final touches would be sega coming back to join.

  17.2.2008 16:32 #84

• error5

  Originally posted by vinny13: Paramount and Universal can't do much if they're running out of major stores to sell their movies... They may have not said much but they'll probably at least go dual-format for a year and then just stop production. That makes sense.When Toshiba does make an announcement I expect Paramount and Universal to reveal their BluRay plans within one to two weeks.
  
  Paramount has a distinct advantage since they have already released on BluRay. They may even have one or two titles hidden in a warehouse somewhere (Blades of Glory?).
  
  OTOH Universal has never released on BluRay and is aboout 2 years behind the other studios in terms of development. There's word that some of their encodes can be ported directly to BluRay but others may have to be re-encoded. The good news is that they have the overhead to go higher on their bitrates.
  
  As eatsushi and juankerr pointed out in another thread I also hope that they release the BD version of American gangster in the Extended Cut version instead of just the theatrical cut.
  
  Regarding the antitrust controversy: I remember reading somewhere that because both sides are not just one company - the BluRay Disc Association (BDA) VS The DVD Forum/HD DVD Promo Group - any antitrust action becomes more complicated and in the end may even be futile. In contrast, Microsoft was alone in its actions so the antitrust charges against them were easier to prosecute.
  
  It's also possible that Toshiba will apply to become a member of the BDA when they decide to manufacture BD-capable players. Once that happens the issue becomes muddier.
  
  As juankerr also pointed out, we're dealing here with art distibution which is a "voluntary medium of entertainment."
  
  Bottom line is, in my view, both sides decided to play dirty right from the start.

  17.2.2008 16:47 #85

• vinny13

  Originally posted by UkWizard: Well done sony you have won the war thanx to the ps3 having blu-ray built in, a massive strategy that has killed hd-dvd. You may have won the disc format war but as long as microsoft are about, you will have trouble winning a console war again. Sony don't have much power compared to microsoft. What we need to kill sony is for nintendo and microsoft to join forces and the final touches would be sega coming back to join.OMG if Nintendo were to "join forces" with M$ I would probably die :P
  
  That would be horrible... With M$ track record of ruining possibly good things with horrible errors and such, I couldn't see it. Nintendo on the other hand, 1 being a company that gives out free stuff, it just doesn't go together...
  
  I just got my 4 Wii controller gloves or whatever. I don't even have 4 controllers :P
  
  As for the 360(nevermind Vista, I like it but just WAY too many problems with it), I can't say much since I don't have one nor want one, but my friends have some kind of new problems every day... From random cannot read errors and flashing screens with wierd noises to explosions(lol that guy's a retard anyways, I guess you can ignore that one :P). One of my friends have come to the conclusion that the post office sees his Xbox more then he does, which is kinda sad. At least they're fixing it all for free. And if they don't then you can always scam Wal-Mart :P
  
  I can agree with you on one thing though, if SEGA were to come back, I would also die. SEGA rules, although I wouldn't know how they could pull it off since many of their recent games have been pretty gabbage(even Sonic was a huge let down). Although, maybe if it was for their own console, their games would be better?
  

  (+[PSP]%) = 3.52M33-4
  
  "I get no respect, I tell ya!"

  17.2.2008 18:12 #86

• ghost.x74

  Originally posted by UkWizard: Well done sony you have won the war thanx to the ps3 having blu-ray built in, a massive strategy that has killed hd-dvd. You may have won the disc format war but as long as microsoft are about, you will have trouble winning a console war again. Sony don't have much power compared to microsoft. What we need to kill sony is for nintendo and microsoft to join forces and the final touches would be sega coming back to join.Yeah then the Nintendo Wii 2 can get the "red ring of death" failure too :-)

  17.2.2008 19:32 #87

• gamename

  BD+ will not effect real piracy at all. i noticed along time ago that "they" usually have a dvd rip on bt sites weeks before anyone here(afterdawn) has even got a copy of the movie to try and rip. case in point, saw4.i watched it on my pc almost a month before anyone posted a question on "how to rip" here at ad. "they" are definitly not using slysoft or fentango thats for sure. the pro's will cut through BD+, like a hot knife through butter. the only people that are going to be hurt by BD+ is the average consumer. the blu-ray camp needs to drop BD+ and the high prices if they want to be around in the future. if not, then this is what i see in my future----alot of downloading.

  17.2.2008 20:28 #88

• UkWizard

  Quote:Originally posted by UkWizard: Well done sony you have won the war thanx to the ps3 having blu-ray built in, a massive strategy that has killed hd-dvd. You may have won the disc format war but as long as microsoft are about, you will have trouble winning a console war again. Sony don't have much power compared to microsoft. What we need to kill sony is for nintendo and microsoft to join forces and the final touches would be sega coming back to join.Yeah then the Nintendo Wii 2 can get the "red ring of death" failure too :-)The day nintendo bring out a machine with real graphics and proper hd will be the day when sega comes back. To be honest I think the wii will be the last nintendo console. What's the point in buying a wii if all they bring out is mario or zelda.

  17.2.2008 22:25 #89

• DVDBack23

  From what i can tell BD+ should be fully cracked by the boys at Slysoft by the time it hits the market in full force lol

  17.2.2008 23:08 #90

• xSModder

  I'm glad to see that the stupid war is over.
  It's nice to see that the corporations and such have decided on a format, but I'm very angry that all the consumers are still not in agreement.
  
  For those of you saying that the people that support and want blu-ray are less intelligent, you are complete idiots. We know the facts already, or will quickly discover them. It's not like we're going to stay in the dark about all the negatives for centuries to come. But worse things have happened and we have overcome them. Piracy will never stop and even then the need to back things up will never stop either. We should be focusing on the media at hand, BD+. But if we are too torn over the stupid bull**** nothing will ever come out of it. People will work day and night to crack it. But no one will even care if there isn't support.
  
  And for those turning it into a console war, you are idiots as well. It isn't a SONY VS MICROSOFT sort of thing. Just get over it.
  
  It's just a stupid argument altogether. It's the end. The book of time has closed. We need to get on with it.
  
  EDIT:
  
  There's probably many points that I left out. I don't want a loyal to the crown HDDVD user picking out pieces of my post like "The book of time has closed" and saying "No it hasnt blablabla this is why". I may or may not know that, but it will eventually find its way into my noggin. I really don't want it quoted at all, but I guess if you agree, then that's okay. But I really don't want somebody just jumping up and pointing out the flaws in my post. I know I didn't do a good job like hughjars up there, addressing everybody and their failures or whatever they didn't see, but whatever. The format war is over. Get on with your life.
  

  XBOX: MS>Evox>MXM>Avalaunch>MXM>Evox
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  18.2.2008 00:51 #91

• UkWizard

  At the end of the day it is sony vs microsoft and always will be until sony crashes out

  18.2.2008 00:55 #92

• ematrix

  hughjars, i share your POV and totally agree with you, there's no point repeating what you have expressed so elocuently, truly is a shame that Toshiba may abandon HD-DVD. It would be interesting if Toshiba decides to go all the way into upscaling DVD players, if right now their HD-DVD players upscale SD-DVD to HD with excelent results, imagine if they perfect such technology in future SD-DVD players, no doubt would be a hell of a twist in this story, from which Toshiba can emerge victorious easily, since it would be very atractive for the vast mayority of consumers, that are content with SD-DVD, and not interested not willing to invest in a Blu-Ray player, that haven't planned yet to purchase a LCD/Plasma TV, neither wish to replace the titles on their movie colections.

  18.2.2008 01:04 #93

• lawndog

  you know what scares me about this whole thing.........Is that although th HD and Bluray format BATTLE maybe over. I don't believe the format war is over. I think with the way technology is going, I don't think it'll be to long before we see movies being transfered over the internet in mass quantities.(other than file sharing of course)
  Anouther thing that really discourages me about the battle being over is now there isn't high def. compition anymore. While Blu and HD were fighting all studios still had to make regular DVDs, if they wanted to sell and get their movies out. Whos to say now that a studio or individual won't come out and say "ok we are only making this in Blu-ray format. Which will force people to upgrade. Ya ya It'll be a long time till that happens. But wasn't this format war supposed to last longer also??
  Also I believe one of the reasons Bluray won is because I'm sure it got alot of backing from people like the mf'n MPAA. Why.........to me it seems that Bluray has been harder to crack. Now I know the people at slysoft are working on this I'm sure.(gotta love them) But still, with as much money as the damn MPAA has, and as much as they want to stop pirates, whos to say they didn't push the studios along with bluray pushing them.
  And for those that don't think that the studios got kickbacks from blu-ray, I honestly hate to say it, yall are gullible. I'm in sales, I get treated to all types of crap that gets written off in different ways. I get treated to 4 star dinners at least once a week to talk about "new products" a vendor is distrubuting. So far been on 3 cruises, that conviently had a schoolings hours I needed for a lisence I hold. Hell next week I'm going to hawaii for a "seminar" I get tickets to sporting events for "talks" And I don't drop a dime for any of those. Oh and the field I work in is not medical, law, or mass retail. It's Landscape/irrigation. Yes lowly back breaking manual labor, well, at least for my guys.
  Now if I get all that crap in my field just think about what happens behind closed doors of those multi-billion dollar companies.
  
  Ok went a little longer than I thought.
  Just my thoughts
  LD

  18.2.2008 01:08 #94

• hughjars

  Originally posted by DVDBack23: From what i can tell BD+ should be fully cracked by the boys at Slysoft by the time it hits the market in full force lol - I know that is the hope but - and it's a huge question-mark over this - what happens when they repeatedly revamp/switch the BD+ coding
  (as it has been specifically designed to do)?
  
  AACS was broken at a fundamental level (after only the 2nd change) so that each revision to it meant little in the end.
  
  I really doubt BD+ is going to be so easy.
  
  But I do hope you're right.......I'm just not so impressed by the lengthy delays between the claims that a break was coming and anything tangible.
  
  The bottom line remains, BD+ has not been broken.
  Anyone saying that it has right now is either badly misinformed or just lying.

  18.2.2008 10:44 #95

• Oner

  Originally posted by hughjars: I know that is the hope but - and it's a huge question-mark over this - what happens when they repeatedly revamp/switch the BD+ coding
  (as it has been specifically designed to do)?Simple. Slysoft will do what they do best and release an update just as they do with DVD's.
  
  
  Originally posted by hughjars: I really doubt BD+ is going to be so easy.Why would you doubt a company (Slysoft) that has not yet failed to provide? It's not like they have a track record of not delivering.
  
  
  Originally posted by hughjars: The bottom line remains, BD+ has not been broken.
  Anyone saying that it has right now is either badly misinformed or just lying.Again, I guess Slysoft don't know what they are talking about but you do?
  
  Quote:6.1.9.6 2007 11 07
  
  * New (Blu-ray): AnyDVD ripper copies BD+ titles
  * New (Blu-ray): Removed "BD+ not supported" warning, as all available BD+ titles can be copied with AnyDVD ripper, or can be watched on HTPC without HDCP using PowerDVD 3104 and AnyDVD. Reports indicate, that burned BD+ titles work on PS3 and standalone players as well.
  * Note to Twentieth Century Fox: As you can see, BD+ didn't offer you any advanced security, it just annoyed some of your customers with older players. So could you please cut this crap and start publishing your titles on HD DVD? There are thousands of people willing to give you money.
  * Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region coding, AACS not mandatory). Don't give your money to people, who throw your fair-use rights out of the window.
  * New (HD DVD & Blu-ray): Support for more MKBv4 titles
  * Some minor fixes and improvements
  * Updated languages
  Taken right from AnyDVD's forum
  
  Why do people continue to give excuses and misinformation, when the real information is FREELY available at your nearest search engine....google. Let alone right here on Afterdawn!
  

  
  
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  18.2.2008 11:22 #96

• bib1234

  Originally posted by esrever: This makes me very angry. I had such high hopes for HD-DVD...now how am I going to use my HD-DVD player when they stop making movies for it. God I hate corporations...i feel you pain but why did you have high hope for HD DVD, i mean blue is a faster and bigger dvd in it self. And it own by sony and sony market the ps3 together because of blue ray i mean put that together and it 2 against one compare with tosihba.

  18.2.2008 11:37 #97

• Leningrad

  LOL imagine if some movie company backed up HDDVD at the last moment .

  18.2.2008 11:49 #98

• lxhotboy

  You cant be mad at corporations for hd dvd since it was still to early to know if hd dvd would last or fail. It could have been vice versa so i chose just to wait until the results and polls were in and it seems that BLU RAY has won the election. Well i guess in a matter or time Microsoft will probably cancel the production of the HD DVD drives and possible make a Blu ray add on since the format decision is now made.

  18.2.2008 12:56 #99

• juankerr

  Originally posted by error5:
  When Toshiba does make an announcement I expect Paramount and Universal to reveal their BluRay plans within one to two weeks.The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the announcement may come "early this week."
  
  Probably as important, Universal, Paramount and Warner will be "immediately released from their committments."
  
  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12032161...p_us_whats_news
  
  Quote:If Toshiba withdraws from the HD DVD business, Viacom Inc.'s Paramount Pictures and General Electric Co.'s Universal Pictures, both of which support the format exclusively, would be immediately released from their commitments, one of the people familiar with the situation said. Warner Bros., which is obligated to sell HD DVD movies through May under its contract, would also be freed from those terms. All three studios couldn't be immediately reached for comment.
  For HD DVD owners:
  
  Quote:said Toshiba will likely continue to provide customer support for HD DVD players that it has sold, but it had no compensation plans in mind for consumers who have already purchased them.
  

  18.2.2008 13:18 #100

• snowlock

  Quote:Quote:Originally posted by UkWizard: ...What we need to kill sony is for nintendo and microsoft to join forces and the final touches would be sega coming back to join.Yeah then the Nintendo Wii 2 can get the "red ring of death" failure too :-)The day nintendo bring out a machine with real graphics and proper hd will be the day when sega comes back. To be honest I think the wii will be the last nintendo console. What's the point in buying a wii if all they bring out is mario or zelda.obviously nintendo has enough graphics and hd for the average consumer, even if it's just 480p. someone else posted that the new sonic was crap, but they probably played the supposedly awful "next-gen" game. sonic and the secret rings for wii was very different and very fun. with third-pary titles like no more heroes, wii seems to have plenty real "gamers' games." i don't think it's nintendo's last console; on the contrary, i think nintendo have used the wii to pull themselves out of the hole they've dug over the past 10 or so years.
  
  
  more on topic, all i can say is score one for the mpaa.

  18.2.2008 13:35 #101

• juankerr

  According to Japanese financial and business publication Nikkei (and reported by engadget) the final announcement from Toshiba will be made tomorrow by the head honcho himself, Toshiba president Atsutoshi Nishida.
  
  http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/18/tos...rrow-stop-sale/
  
  Quote:Despite Red's inability to make any real public statement, Japanese publication Nikkei has it that Toshiba president Atsutoshi Nishida will be announcing the final discontinuation of HD DVD tomorrow, as well as halted sales of hardware and media by March (as in days from now). Apparently Toshiba will pull its units from retail shelves, but has no intention to give burned early adopters any refunds (no kidding?); it sounds like the ceasefire will include the bare PC drives as well, so those hoping to keep using HD DVD as a personal data storage medium probably won't have much luck. Apparently the announcement will come alongside Toshiba's plans to build new semiconductor fabs, which we're sure they'll try to spin as an advancement that far overshadows the hill of beans (read: hundreds of millions) they've lost in the format war. Those wanting to get backup players should buy their units soon.

  18.2.2008 14:28 #102

• BurningAs

  This is truly sad. The winner was not decided by the consumer but by Sony's bank account. The format that the people want is the format that lost. This seriously marks a blow to consumerism and it's strugle with conglomerates like Sony.
  
  80% of all BD players out there are ps3s, so what does this tell you? Only 20% actually went out and bought a BD player because they supported BD. Whereas all HDDVD units are standalone players except for a tiny portion of the xbox addon. SO why didn't the product that the consumers wanted win the war?
  
  Sony bought everyone. Don't even try to argue, don't even try to defend this with 'official statements'- Sony paid Warner to move over. despite what they say, Sony saw that Warner was the key and they knew if they had Warner it would cause a landslide effect. So Sony paid in a large lump sum in cash to Warner and Warner went BD only.
  
  They Netflix, then blockbuster. Then Wal-Mart, which obviously is the most important outlet, i'm pretty sure SOny paid them too. If Wal-Mart went HDDVD only, then the war would have gone the other way.
  
  It's very said BD won.

  18.2.2008 15:54 #103

• domie

  Originally posted by BurningAs: This is truly sad. The winner was not decided by the consumer but by Sony's bank account. The format that the people want is the format that lost. This seriously marks a blow to consumerism and it's strugle with conglomerates like Sony.
  
  you mean the format you wanted ? I certainly didn't want HD-DVD . I fail to find any logic or evidence in your argument.where is your evidence that HD-DVD is what the majority of people wanted ? did you do a world wide straw poll ? if the consumer public wanted HD-DVD then why the hell didn't they buy more HD-DVD discs ? there were just as many HD-DVD discs for sale as blu ray yet they were still outbought by Blu Ray on every continent on the planet, by 9:1 in japan by 7:1 in Europe and by 7:4 in the USA - end of story.

  18.2.2008 16:06 #104

• camaro17

  hughjars......
  
  face it man its over. theres nothing left for hd-dvd to do besides sell of remiaing stock.
  
  Peace, and sorry all you hd-dvd fans, i know this sucks for you nut its over.

  18.2.2008 16:08 #105

• juankerr

  Originally posted by BurningAs: The winner was not decided by the consumer but by Sony's bank account. The format that the people want is the format that lost. Actually the "consumer" that you're referring to that bought HD DVD players is a small population of early adaptors and AV enthusiasts.
  
  The "regular consumer" or "J6P" doesn't have the slightest idea of what HD DVD or BluRay is. The regular consumer consisting of a large proportion of the population is content with his SD TV and his regular DVD player and VCR. To say that the regular consumer was interested or even aware of the format war is inaccurate.
  
  Plus some of these HD DVD owners also bought BluRay players and dual-format players - like myself.
  
  So the correct statement would be "The format war winner was not decided by the small population of AV enthusisasts that own high-def players."
  
  One million or so HD DVD owners is a tiny drop in the big bucket of consumer electronics.

  18.2.2008 16:28 #106

• hughjars

  Originally posted by Oner: Simple. Slysoft will do what they do best and release an update just as they do with DVD's. - Well as I said earlier, I hope you're right about that.
  
  We'll see.
  
  Originally posted by Oner: Why would you doubt a company (Slysoft) that has not yet failed to provide? It's not like they have a track record of not delivering. - I guess it's because BD+ is an entirely different animal to what we have seen to date.
  
  Originally posted by Oner: Again,I guess Slysoft don't know what they are talking about[/url] but you do?
  
  6.1.9.6 2007 11 07 - I know that a movie can be put on a HDD and played from there (but only if you have the original in your machine) but that's only 'ripping' in a manner of speaking
  (and therefore not what most of us would consider a rip I'd dare say).
  
  I have yet to see anyone say BD+'s completely defeated and you can then take those files & share them.
  
  I have seen BD+ movies taken from 'HDMI capture' (at a cost in quality) but not seen BD+ defeated in the way AACS was with HD DVD to enable sharing.

  18.2.2008 20:52 #107

• juankerr

  It's over folks.
  
  Here's the official press release from Toshiba:
  
  http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_02/pr1903.htm
  
  Quote:
  Toshiba Announces Discontinuation of HD DVD Businesses
  
  19 February, 2008
  
  Company Remains Focused on Championing Consumer Access to High Definition Content
  
  TOKYO--Toshiba Corporation today announced that it has undertaken a thorough review of its overall strategy for HD DVD and has decided it will no longer develop, manufacture and market HD DVD players and recorders. This decision has been made following recent major changes in the market. Toshiba will continue, however, to provide full product support and after-sales service for all owners of Toshiba HD DVD products.
  
  HD DVD was developed to offer consumers access at an affordable price to high-quality, high definition content and prepare them for the digital convergence of tomorrow where the fusion of consumer electronics and IT will continue to progress.
  
  "We carefully assessed the long-term impact of continuing the so-called 'next-generation format war' and concluded that a swift decision will best help the market develop," said Atsutoshi Nishida, President and CEO of Toshiba Corporation. "While we are disappointed for the company and more importantly, for the consumer, the real mass market opportunity for high definition content remains untapped and Toshiba is both able and determined to use our talent, technology and intellectual property to make digital convergence a reality."
  
  Toshiba will continue to lead innovation, in a wide range of technologies that will drive mass market access to high definition content. These include high capacity NAND flash memory, small form factor hard disk drives, next generation CPUs, visual processing, and wireless and encryption technologies. The company expects to make forthcoming announcements around strategic progress in these convergence technologies.
  
  Toshiba will begin to reduce shipments of HD DVD players and recorders to retail channels, aiming for cessation of these businesses by the end of March 2008. Toshiba also plans to end volume production of HD DVD disk drives for such applications as PCs and games in the same timeframe, yet will continue to make efforts to meet customer requirements. The company will continue to assess the position of notebook PCs with integrated HD DVD drives within the overall PC business relative to future market demand.
  
  This decision will not impact on Toshiba's commitment to standard DVD, and the company will continue to market conventional DVD players and recorders. Toshiba intends to continue to contribute to the development of the DVD industry, as a member of the DVD Forum, an international organization with some 200 member companies, committed to the discussion and defining of optimum optical disc formats for the consumer and the related industries.
  
  Toshiba also intends to maintain collaborative relations with the companies who joined with Toshiba in working to build up the HD DVD market, including Universal Studios, Paramount Pictures, and DreamWorks Animation and major Japanese and European content providers on the entertainment side, as well as leaders in the IT industry, including Microsoft, Intel, and HP. Toshiba will study possible collaboration with these companies for future business opportunities, utilizing the many assets generated through the development of HD DVD.
  

  19.2.2008 03:06 #108

• borhan9

  Quote:We will keep you updated on any word from Microsoft, Paramount, or Universal as to this latest word from Toshiba but for now it seems that all that can be said is R.I.P HD DVD.What a sad day mark the 17 Feb as end of the format war. The question that still lies is that after Toshiba leaves HD DVD behind will they eventually go to Blu-ray?

  9.4.2008 15:37 #109

• Nephilim

  Dead topic dude.

  9.4.2008 17:29 #110

• goodswipe

  Yea, along with all the other ones he's dug up from the dead!
  

  
  
  "look honey, it said goodswipe! oh wow, that's amazing."

  9.4.2008 17:34 #111

• borhan9

  Originally posted by goodswipe: Yea, along with all the other ones he's dug up from the dead!i know guys that these are dead topics what can i say i am behind in my article reading. My time at afterdawn is not what it used to be so thats whi like to read every article even if that means its gonna take me awhile.

  9.4.2008 17:49 #112