Ubisoft: PC games have 95 percent piracy rate

Ubisoft, always one to bring ridiculous figures to the table, has come out today with a number that should scare any developer looking to create a game for the PC.

CEO Yves Guillemot has said today that 93-95 percent of PC games are pirated.

Reads his quote, when asked about free-to-play titles:

It's a way to get closer to your customers, to make sure you have a revenue. On PC it's only around five to seven per cent of the players who pay for F2P, but normally on PC it's only about five to seven per cent who pay anyway, the rest is pirated. It's around a 93-95 per cent piracy rate, so it ends up at about the same percentage. The revenue we get from the people who play is more long term, so we can continue to bring content.

The rate is almost certainly not accurate, but it may be for Ubisoft games, each of which have DRM that does not allow gamers to play unless connected to the Internet. All of the DRM is usually broken in a day or less after release.

Written by: Andre Yoskowitz @ 22 Aug 2012 14:37

sammorris

This both amuses and saddens me.

Ubisoft posting a number plucked from thin air about piracy rates, of all the companies, given Ubisoft probably have the highest rate of piracy due to their horrifying DRM systems. Not that there should ever be an 'excuse' for software piracy, but if I really wanted to support a Ubisoft game I'd pay the money for it, leave it undownloaded/still in the shrinkwrap, then just play a pirate copy.

Sad however because the people that have a say in things will believe these figures, which will have two negative effects -> firstly more weight added to the 'software piracy should carry the death penalty' crowd, and secondly more reason for games manufacturers to avoid the PC platform in favour of 'piracy-safe' console platforms.

Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/5036
updated 25-May-11

22.8.2012 14:47 #1

Bozobub

I actually HAD to crack 2 bought Ubisoft games, simply to make them work properly, FFS.

22.8.2012 15:51 #2

Mysttic

I dont think they mean 90% of software out there on a users machine is pirated, it sounds to me what they are saying is that 90% of the apps created get pirated version in some form. Which is true... Find me an app or game that you can't find some pirated version in one form or another?

22.8.2012 17:10 #3

sammorris

The industry standard measurement is the proportion of uses of the game that were paid for. If 10 million people are playing a game but only 500,000 people bought it, that's a 95% piracy rate.

Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/5036
updated 25-May-11

22.8.2012 17:11 #4

Clam_Up

To be perfectly frank, they knew this when they got into the software business. Copyright Infringement is and has always been dominant in this industry and they chose to take on those statistical risks when they went into the business.

Caveat Venditor

22.8.2012 17:50 #5

gDavid

They need to go to China and throw a 'hissy-fit' about piracy.

22.8.2012 19:07 #6

Bozobub

What no one has mentioned about this article, is that Ubisoft is clearly admitting their draconian DRM, in fact, doesn't work, yet they still insist on punishing their legit users. Hell, for the D2D version of Rainbow 6: Vegas 2, Ubisoft even directly stole the Skid Row crack, when they buggered up their patch!

(Apologies for the external link, I'm sure AD reported on this, but that's what came up in Google ^^')

22.8.2012 20:10 #7

joebloe12

I would like to know what kind of CRACK they are smoking! (or meth for that matter)

That is about the stupidest statement I have read so far from a software company!

Is software pirated? Sure, especially THEIR software, because they are such idiots they cannot understand that when you put in DRM in games, it will be taken out as fast as it was put in!

But 95%? Come on Ubisoft, that is just a plain lie!

And them having to use a PIRATED Skidrow crack makes them look even more foolish. It seems the pirates know more about how to fix their idiotic games than they do!

As far as myself, I wil NEVER...EVER buy a ubisoft title. Why? Because of the draconian DRM they have put in their products. Hook to the net and KEEP hooked if you want to play a stupid game just to keep your saves? NO THANKS!

22.8.2012 23:19 #8

KillerBug

Ubisoft is just a company to ignore...they say stupid things, they can't program their way out of an open jet hangar, and most of their $60 titles last less than 10 hours if you don't include multiplayer (which many of them don't even offer in spite of requiring an always-on internet connection).

Still, I can almost believe the numbers...or at least I want to believe them. I really don't want to believe that more than 5% of the population is dumb enough to blow $60 a pop on such terrible games.

23.8.2012 00:47 #9

dp70

Is ubisoft hanging out with MPAA, or are they using the same statisticians? You could not give me an ubisoft anything or pay me to do so.

If there was a fair price for the product, there would be no incentive to copy anything. We should thank them for providing the impetus for producing the mousetrap that has given us better and smarter, computer users..and comedy worthy of The Marx Bros.

23.8.2012 05:22 #10

KillerBug

Originally posted by dp70: Is ubisoft hanging out with MPAA Given their over-restrictive, easily beatable DRM that does nothing but encourage piracy, I'd have to say yes.

23.8.2012 08:31 #11

Bozobub

The last Ubisoft game I unequivocally enjoyed was Beyond Good and Evil =/ ...

23.8.2012 22:22 #12

xboxd00d

Originally posted by Bozobub: I actually HAD to crack 2 bought Ubisoft games, simply to make them work properly, FFS. Lmao!
That's pretty bad!
Back when my pc was my gaming centre I usually got the "no cd" crack simply for convenience, even tho I owned the original.
To stay on topic, the statement is probably true (if he is saying 95% of pc games r copied), but just because it's been ripped and uploaded doesn't mean everyone (or 95% of gamers) have leeched it, cos if they had the games industry would collapse overnight, hell I certainly would not work my ass off all week for 95% less than I'm owed!!!

On a note about piracy, it confuses me somewhat, some clever hackers will buy a game, to circumvent any protection it may have, to upload it to download for free, with the only thing they may get out of it is reputation as an elite hacker in the form of an nfo which (here comes the laughable bit) says "support software developers, if u like this, buy it"!
Lol

"Trying is the first step towards Failure" Homer.J.Simpson

24.8.2012 07:38 #13

Estuansis

Beyond Good & Evil was amazing :)

As far as games that have never been successfully pirated, the only Ubisoft title I can recall is Tom Clancy's HAWX 2. It uses a certain version of the always-on DRM that makes it impossible to crack, but luckily it doesn't work for most games. Something to do with how it was programmed and how the game itself implements it.

In the earlier days of PC gaming Ubisoft was quite good but with the latest BS, they have ruined their own reputation.
------------------------------------------

Just another addition:

http://www.techdirt.com/blog/casestudie...-dont-pay.shtml

No duh, you frikking geniuses.

I own several Ubisoft games that have since been patched into uselessness, thus I was forced to play an "alternatively obtained" copy of something I own. Even more of them I have had to do this with because it is actually a LOT less effort than using the retail game and jumping through hoop after hoop to get everything activated.

http://www.listal.com/list/games-worst-drm-issues

Ubisoft isn't the only company to pull this crap. I own every game on this list except Spore and have basically been forced to either "alternatively obtain" or buy a Steam copy for every single one.

They can complain about piracy all they want but until they make up some truly fair prices and stop dropping the quality with every release, nobody will care.

The endless DLC is also another HUGE cause of piracy. Mass Effect 2 being a good example of this. Roughly a quarter of the game's content is DLC(a LOT of content, being a 50-60 hour game). Much of it is absolutely essential to get the entire story line. But guess what, the DLC costs $50 by itself. So $100 at the very least for a single game? **** that.

Not to mention the horrible management of said DLC. A lot of it requires online authorization to activate, but most companios do not have an organized system for tracking all of it. Many people are complaining of being unable to use DLC they paid good money for. (OBLIVION HORSE ARMOR)

When a game is pirated, it is actually yours for life, and there is no danger of the company pulling a fast one or dying and leaving you high and dry. Online authorization is especially dangerous for this reason. I can still play all of my SNES and N64 games, but my PC games are useless if the company goes bankrupt? Yeah **** that. I can't afford to pay $60 a pop for games that won't be there in 5-10 years.

AMD Phenom II 955BE @ 3.8GHz 19 x 200 1.375v 2400NB 2200SB, CoolIt Eco 120 ALC 2 x Scythe S-Flex 1600RPM Push/Pull intake, Gigabyte GA-890XA-UD3, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 CL 9-9-9-24, 2 x XFX HD6850 1GB Crossfire(OC 775/1000->900/1150), Cooler Master HAF 932 AMD Dragon Custom, Corsair 620HX, Dell UltraSharp 2407WFP 1920 x 1200 24" LCD/Asus VH242H 1920 x 1080 23.6" LCD

24.8.2012 08:03 #14

gbswales

Pretty much everything has been said already. My guess is that they are still making a profit on these games despite the piracy. What would they do if they managed to eradicate piracy - Reduce the price of the products? - I think we know the answer to that one, they woud smile and pocket the extra profits.

More companies should follow the model of Big Fish Games, and the like, and sell games at an affordable price enticing people to buy them by offering attractive membership deals. Sure their games are easy to find in the black market (mostly I notice in Dutch and German versions) but why go to the hassle and risk of pirated copies when the legit versions are easily affordable. If my kids were still young I would just buy them a monthly membership to big fish and let them have a free game every month.

What we need now is for the other big companies to follow that kind of lead and make all games affordable to pocket money users - I suspect the high cost of games is just one more cause of the increasing crime rate amongst young people who cannot legitimately find a way to afford the latest "must have" games.

Newbie with Panasonic NV-BS60B
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable.
There is anothe

24.8.2012 08:46 #15

Estuansis

For the record, Steam is probably the single most progressive thing done about piracy ever. Brand new games for discount prices, reliable activation systems, convenient ways to access DLC, etc.

GOG.com is also wonderful as they offer many classic PC games DRM-free that would otherwise be old and defunct now. Excellent prices as well :)

24.8.2012 08:51 #16

salsa36

They just figure this out now?????

24.8.2012 09:25 #17

Bozobub

Originally posted by Estuansis: {snip}The endless DLC is also another HUGE cause of piracy. Mass Effect 2 being a good example of this. Roughly a quarter of the game's content is DLC(a LOT of content, being a 50-60 hour game). Much of it is absolutely essential to get the entire story line. But guess what, the DLC costs $50 by itself. So $100 at the very least for a single game? **** that.

Not to mention the horrible management of said DLC. A lot of it requires online authorization to activate, but most companios do not have an organized system for tracking all of it. Many people are complaining of being unable to use DLC they paid good money for. (OBLIVION HORSE ARMOR){/snip}
Yes, Mass Effect is a great example. The 1st one pissed me off, because the DLC "Bring Down the Sky", which supposedly came with purchase of the main game, would never install. I had the digital distribution, and apparently there was some weird error. That's a game I bought from a non-Ubisoft publisher I had to pirate to make work properly =p ... My PIRATED version works fine, dammit.

After that, I just pirated the next 2; screw you AND your overactive DRM!

They'll never learn.

24.8.2012 11:21 #18

LordRuss

Everyone has made a good honest comment/statement that has certainly stood the test of time. obviously the MPAA/RIAA didn't make it into UbiSoft's statement, but I'm sure it very well may have been hot on their heals.

Although like others have stated, online providers like Steam are providing content at steeply discounted prices that 'may' indeed be thwarting piracy to an extent. As we all know, the criminal element can't/won't be squelched for the mere fact that there are some individuals who simply want the thrill of 'not being caught' & the actual game has nothing to do with it.

I too have purchased a couple of titles that, in turn, I had to go and download a pirated copy because after repeated attempts of loading the game legitimately had failed the pirated software was the only solution. Leave it to the hacked software to be better supported than the actual company producing it.

Which I suppose is my only addition to everyone's exceptional comments. Service. Repeated emails directing you to a link basically walking you through how to remove & reload the software is not customer service. That, or last ditch efforts telling you to remove hardware, that has been working quite fine for months (despite proper driver updates & the likes) doesn't really help either.

But then I think we all get the gist.

http://onlyinrussellsworld.blogspot.com

24.8.2012 11:21 #19

Bozobub

Heh. Another thing software customer service will try to do is tell you to permanently disable/uninstall your AV/firewall. That's what they tried to tell me with the Bring Down the Sky DLC. Uh huh, yeah, I'm going to risk my entire expensive gaming system, merely to coddle your crappy DRM, that's the ticket...

Not gonna happen.

24.8.2012 11:33 #20

Estuansis

Personally run with no AV/Firewall to speak of and have never had an issue :)

I admit that's pretty stupid though.

24.8.2012 12:22 #21

xboxd00d

Originally posted by Estuansis: Personally run with no AV/Firewall to speak of and have never had an issue :)

I admit that's pretty stupid though. Lol yea that is a bit crazy, my "slightly simple" cousin once said the same to me and when he gave me his pc to look at cos it was running really slow, it had about 2700 infections, lol.
Needless to say he now uses av software.

"Trying is the first step towards Failure" Homer.J.Simpson

24.8.2012 13:14 #22

Estuansis

I suppose it's a bit different when you're a power user ;P

I do run AV on my parents' and customers' machines though.

24.8.2012 14:15 #23

omegaman7

Make worthy games, and I'll buy them. I like to try games before I buy them. If I like it a lot, I will pony up the dough! GTA IV I didn't even have to try. Given the track record of GTA, I new it would be worth it. I was however quite disappointed with the level of DRM. And having to put the disc in each time I want to play is BS! I've bought a few games through steam as well. The prices were agreeable, and I was feeling generous.

Goes the same way for movies. The avengers was quite good. I was 99% sure before going to it, that I would enjoy it. Put some effort into movies and games, and honest people will fork over the cash! Sorry, but I'm not spending $50 on a game/movie, that I'll only touch once...

Theres that word again. "Epic!" Is there something wrong with mankinds ability to be creative?

24.8.2012 14:16 #24

ronatola

The video game market needs a better try before you buy approach. not all games have demos anymore.
the only reason I pirate is to try the game first. If I play for more than 20-30 mins and I like it - I shut it down, uninstall it, buy it and re-install.
I wouldn't have to do this if there were more demos.
this goes for consoles and pc platforms.

24.8.2012 20:14 #25

Mez

Ubisoft is a complainer but they also have initiated a new method of catching torrent users. I do not know why they complain they are asking the pirates to cough up 2K USDs/game.

Estuansis, I have 2 AVs running in parallel and know I have 3 bot nets 'in a jar'. I always run my browser in a sandbox because even AVs do not stop all malware. I know there are 3 malwares trying to attach to my browser. I update the browser as an admin user every few days. I do not browse under that ID I just allow the browser to get updated in a clean environment. All the updates trying to up date the sandboxed browser under my non admin account I use for browsing are probably bot nets. Every month I empty the sand box and I stop getting the message do you want to allow this update to happen. By the end of the month they will be barking for me to let them in.

25.8.2012 13:55 #26

Bozobub

Mez, you're doing it wrong. Running 2 AVs in parallel - at least any real-time scanning modules - is a rather bad idea, because they will interfere with each other and cause drastic additional performance overhead on your system.

Furthermore, without more information, your description of "3 botnets trying to attach to your browser" is shaky, indeed; from your description, they're most likely legit browser (especially if Firefox, which updates ridiculously often) and/or plugin updates.

Excessive paranoia is just as destructive, in the end, as NO paranoia.

A good heuristic protection system, akin to Comodo's "HIPS" module (comes with their AV and firewall products) or something similar, is just about as effective, in the long run, as an actual traditional AV, if not more so, especially combined with a strong firewall with outbound detection/protection. Definition-based scanners aren't really very effective against new threats.

25.8.2012 14:30 #27

xboxd00d

Originally posted by Mez: I have 2 AVs running in parallel and know I have 3 bot nets 'in a jar'. I always run my browser in a sandbox because even AVs do not stop all malware. I know there are 3 malwares trying to attach to my browser. I update the browser as an admin user every few days. I do not browse under that ID I just allow the browser to get updated in a clean environment. All the updates trying to up date the sandboxed browser under my non admin account I use for browsing are probably bot nets. Every month I empty the sand box and I stop getting the message do you want to allow this update to happen. By the end of the month they will be barking for me to let them in. Overkill alert!!!
That's like wearing 2 condoms after having a vasectomy (just to be on the extra safe side)!
Lol

"Trying is the first step towards Failure" Homer.J.Simpson

25.8.2012 15:28 #28

Mez

Originally posted by Bozobub: Mez, you're doing it wrong. Running 2 AVs in parallel - at least any real-time scanning modules - is a rather bad idea, because they will interfere with each other and cause drastic additional performance overhead on your system.

Furthermore, without more information, your description of "3 botnets trying to attach to your browser" is shaky, indeed; from your description, they're most likely legit browser (especially if Firefox, which updates ridiculously often) and/or plugin updates.

Excessive paranoia is just as destructive, in the end, as NO paranoia.

A good heuristic protection system, akin to Comodo's "HIPS" module (comes with their AV and firewall products) or something similar, is just about as effective, in the long run, as an actual traditional AV, if not more so, especially combined with a strong firewall with outbound detection/protection. Definition-based scanners aren't really very effective against new threats. Gee WIZ! I wish I had you brains! You think know more about my computer than I do. I know a bit about computers myself.

No, if they were legit updates they would have updated with the legit updates on the clean side.

If you read carefully, you would have noted after I flush the sandbox I do not see the phantom updates for weeks. The real updates are all that are asked for. Instead, right after I have done all my legitimate updates under the admin user I am still asked to do more updates under the other user.

Now, maybe you think I am paranoid but I don't really care what you think!

I will agree with the scanners not being very effecting against new threats but mine find enough that I am satisfied. They still are the only defense against threats coming in by USB sticks etc.

I have picked two lighter weight scanners that can work together. 2 that use way different methods to detect threats. I have been doing so since 1995. It takes awhile to find 2 that can work together. I hope I am smart enough to have figured out by now if I have been doing something wrong by now. I also pick scanners that are highly configurable. I have way too much static stuff to have moronic AVs try to scan 6 tb of data that doesn't change. They both do find stuff so they are doing something. Neither find most of what is trying to up date my browser.

25.8.2012 15:45 #29

Bozobub

a) If you don't care about other peoples' opinions, why are you posting your info on a forum/blog..?

b) If something is trying to "update" your browser externally, then your system is already guaranteed to be compromised.

c) Many AVs are quite bad about false positives. Norton, McAfee, and AVG are arguably the worst about this, especially the 1st two, since they also ignore user-defined exclusions.

c) While multiple on-demand scanners is never a bad thing, more than one real-time scanner is never good. Don't believe me? Google is your friend.

d) Sandboxes *are not* perfectly secure. Again, Google is your friend.

Stuff that willy back in your pants, buster.

25.8.2012 16:23 #30

Mez

a) Actually I do not care about youropinions. That might change in time. You haven't said anything technically stupid yet and I don't mind jerks since I can be one if you yank my chain like you are doing. As long as you are a smart jerk you will be OK in my book. However as long as you are condescending to me I will give you a hard time.

b) Actually the sand box is compromised, at the very worse the limited user is compromised. You are getting better since before you said I was paranoid and now we agree. There is hope for you yet!

c) I Don't not use any of those. More importunately, especially Norton they are not all that configurable. I really am not worried about false positives unless they happen all the time. I use configurable AVs which I can tell the AV to ignore the threat. More than 80% of the time it is obvious one way or the other. For the rest, I do know how to use Google.

the second c)I can read. Back when I started doing it the 'geniuses' thought 2 were better. Now the 'geniuses' think one is better. Since the the predicted disasters never happen I know the experts AREN'T.

d) Oh yea! I will tell you a bigger concept NOTHING IS PERFECT! I am not even proud that I know that one. My the way, I didn't need to Google to figure that one out.

Next you will be bragging that you are sooooooooooo smart you know night is dark!

Sorry! I can be a hot-head and a self admitted jerk.

25.8.2012 23:51 #31

Estuansis

He[Bozobub] simply stated some known facts about AV programs, and speculated that something was maybe amiss. He didn't call names, and he didn't use condescending language. You got confrontational and condescending and started calling names all on your own. No call for it.

If you disagree with something, do so in a civilized manner, this is not Youtube. Would have been a lot simpler to just explain why you used 2 AV's in the first place than calling names, no?
--------------------------------------

Personally am a fan of Comodo Internet Security due to being very good about false positives and being very good in general.

As far as running no AV, it's just that simple. If you have a strong enough grasp of the internet, and the warning signs of a fraudulent site, it's not hard to avoid them. The last virus or bot I've had to deal with was on a PC protected by AV software.

The trick is knowing how to avoid clicking bad links, and blocking pop-ups and ads before they appear.

26.8.2012 00:30 #32

ddp

Mez, edit your posts as we don't need the language & insults.

26.8.2012 00:33 #33

Bozobub

Mez, the only vaguely insulting thing I've said to you, is "Stuff that willy back in your pants, buster." I believe I was justified in doing so, as you've leapt down my throat twice now. Stop waggling your willy at me, I'm not impressed.

For your edification:
- I can have no idea about what you already know about PCs and security, except via what you tell me. Coincidentally, you've told me you're doing something that is generally considered inadvisable. Hmm...

- I was only using those AVs as an example. No one has the time to write (or read) an exhaustive list.

- There is more than one malware that DOES cross the line and escape sandboxes/VMs, sorry. Google it if you don't believe me, there are many references.

- Nearly all security *experts* say that running more than one real-time AV module at once is a bad idea, for many reasons. For example, they not only can directly interfere with each other's operation, but WILL cause significant extra CPU and I/O overhead, as they "fight" over new files presented to the system (say, on a USB stick). It's asking for trouble, with no clear payoff.

- If you have too much confidence in any given security measure, that security measure is a *weakness*, not a strength.

- This thread is about Ubisoft, their obnoxious DRM, and piracy, NOT your PC. Let it be.

26.8.2012 01:17 #34

xboxd00d

Wow, this is a really heated discussion over av usage, lol.
And just to chip in again on software, on my windows 7 partition I use avg free (and have done for years) with windows firewall enabled (formerly used any product with norton stamped on it but found that it so deeply roots itself in the system is a drain on resources).
And on my other partition I use nothing cos it's a hackintosh running snow leopard, and after 2+ years of constant use it has never failed me (maybe crashed a few times).

"Trying is the first step towards Failure" Homer.J.Simpson

26.8.2012 03:46 #35

Estuansis

The whole conversation came up because one person mentioned being told to remove his AV as a workaround for some crap DRM, which is horrible advice and whoever told him that should be fired.

I simply commented that I don't use an AV and haven't for quite a long while, so have never had the issue. 64-bit Windows is nowhere near as virus-prone as 32-bit for a large variety of reasons. One of them being an extra software layer between the OS and hardware. Not saying I haven't had ANY viruses, but nothing that I didn't cause myself knowingly. Whether or not I use an AV, one will eventually squeak through and the fix is as simple as a reformat. I have long since de-centralized most of my software so the only component that is affected is the OS itself. most of my software and games are on separate drives.

As far as DRM is concerned, Ubisoft are by far one of the worst offenders, right next to StarForce. There is a significant percentage of gamers who have been unable to use purchased disc-copies of games due to the insane requirements for getting past the DRM. Assassin's Creed II requires a constant internet connection for an entirely single player game, and other games have activation limits which is just plain stupid.

My disc copies of Bioshock and Mass Effect were rendered useless. Granted they patched this out later, but by then I already had a superior version of the game sitting on my hard drive by then.

26.8.2012 05:19 #36

Bozobub

What's even sillier is that, if you Google it, disabling/removing your security software also never works to fix the issue. It was just a transparent, "Oh, it's not OUR fault" ploy by Ubisoft.

26.8.2012 10:56 #37

Mez

I was up too late last night and must have been cranky. Sorry again Bozobub for jumping all over you. All the advice you gave was technically correct. I just wasn't in the mood for someone telling me a laundry list of stuff I already knew.

BTW...
1) The account I used last night WAS compromised and had to be deleted. That is how I get around that the sandbox does not offer complete protection. It usually works much better if you empty the sandbox at the first sign of trouble but I was lazy and complacent. However, it takes no time to delete and create a new user. You run it in a sacrificial user account with very limited rights.

I would not say what I have is the best protection out there but it is better than some and way better than none. There seems to be malware smart enough to fool everything but me the human that their attack is simply a legitimate update. That ought to worry some of you.
2) I am too busy to surf the web these days and the only 2 places I have gone that have adds in the last 2 weeks that I can remember were Facebook and AD. I do not click on ANY adds or anything else. If you think behavior will protect your computer think again.

Sorry to be off topic but security is a big issue with me.

26.8.2012 11:14 #38

Estuansis

Now that was right pleasant :)

26.8.2012 13:04 #39

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